My thoughts on AO 1941

[FunPolice749]

Overall I greatly enjoyed the content and liked a lot of the things that happened within the dlc but do have a few things I thought were lacking.

Some of my favorite things from the dlc
1. The well balanced scenarios. I thought they all flowed well and also got progressively harder. Specifically around Bryansk and beyond is when I had to start doing several restarts to get all the bonus objectives felt great as these were the final scenarios of the dlc. Klin was maybe a tad to easy but that's fine after the grueling brawl that was Moscow.
2. The seeding of future events with those tokens are really cool. I'm very interested in getting the payoffs for the work I've been investing into it. I do wish the Jagdtiger token had some clue to it because the only way to know it's coming is to pretty much have someone tell you aobut it. Something like a passing mention when you first meet KV1s would've been nice to see in retrospect.
3. The heroes and elite units. I think this has been the best encounter with elite heroes and their entourage. There were a couple times I went 'oh crap' when a bunch of KV1s showed up stacked with heroes and overstrengthed. It was quite the shock but at the same time did feel beatable. I could actually kill these heroes units unlike that of De Gualle from before. There wasn't a nemesis but the different heroes made me nervous every time one showed up.

Some of things I was neutral on
1. Commendation rewards had a mixed result to me. Some of them like the prototype planes were awesome while the captured soviet equipment ranged from sweet to really lackluster. Like there wasn't a single commendation point that gave any T34s! That felt like a mistake that could've made some of the commendation investments make it feel more worthwhile to get.
2. The branching path to Kiev seemed kinda random to me. The scenarios weren't particularly hard and they have several commendation points invesetments including the only one tyo actually give you soviet tanks to use. It felt like that was meant to be like a split path but was converted to a choice for some reason that is beyond me.

The things I didn't like
1. The prestige sinks I though were utter garbage. They only gave me the nice L6/40 flame tanks as the other rewards were just useless. For how expensive that can be I think there should have been something more tangible there. As it stands I just really don't see a reason to ever take these once you know what they give which is a shame.
2. A lot of new equipment felt useless. The Toldi tank had a brand new model yet it is literally a Pz 2 reskin. I think that was a big let down for me as I was really excited to try it out. Could it really not have had something like +1 soft attack or maybe like +1 ground defense so there was some purpose to it? Atm I could only see using them maybe in a collector run but other wise it felt completely like a waste. That also extends to a variety of the captured equipment. In some places it was worse than others but almost every cache, commendation point exchange, and prestige gave you some set of units that was just worse than your vanilla equipment which for me made it feel like I was getting screwed out of better rewards for no reason.
3. I also wish we had some commendation point sink at the end. It was sad that I did everything in every scenario and then I just get nothing from it. This seems like a bigger issue now that so many commendation points were left over for 1941.

[Kerensky]

Thanks for your feedback, and of course to everyone else with their feedback on the latest content!

I've seen a few threads mention a few bits of constructive criticism by now, but instead of the normal platitudes, I will say one thing, and ask one thing.

The Toldi I debuting as basically just a same stat Panzer IIC with a different skin... all I say is to give us a little patience here. Believe or not, this is part of an intentional plan, and deliberately not changing Toldi I stats is part of that long term plan.
I'm sure it rings hollow right now, but hopefully all can be revealed in the future! It's all about set up and pay offs.


And what I would ask:

There are a lot of tools in the kit of prestige management, but I guess it's clear that some people aren't engaging with those tools (maybe because they don't find certain Extra Challenge modes fun for example). Also, there are prestige sinks and the possibility of the prestige reset (we did a 8500 reset for Sea Lion).

If we put in a Prestige Reset event at the very start of... the next DLC, what is something players would want to engage with?
If Axis Minor nation equipment stocks or captured equipment isn't enough, what could we entice players with instead, so they properly engage with a prestige reset so their next DLC experience isn't spoiled by 100k+ banked prestige?

Now of course those players who use special tactics and General traits to re-inflate their prestige are going to play that way because they want to play that way. I don't want to force anyone to play any which way, so I can only encourage those players to try new ways to play with new General trait combinations...

But maybe we can throw out some ideas for what a Prestige Reset Event might offer? An event that will happen extremely early into a future campaign, not a mid campaign or near end event either.

The most obvious thing that comes to my mind is a hero that has abilities that cannot be randomly rolled for (+movement, +range, +ammo total, these sorts of traits). But I'm sure the players not inclined to play with more heroes won't be partial to that. What else can we add to a Prestige Reset?

What if we did a really whacky idea:

If you accept a Prestige Reset, special extra elite enemies will not appear in several upcoming scenarios. Imagine if at the start of 1940, you could pay prestige to not have to deal with du Gaulle, as an example of what this might look like. Or accept a Prestige Reset to do the opposite... accept the Reset make enemies also stronger. +2 strength to all enemy units, separate from or even on top of the potential +5 strength option that already exists in Extra Challenges.

I have no idea if it's even possible, but something that would be a nice reward: One time offer for ability to combine heroes. Take Hero A and combine them with Hero B. In effect you take 2 randoms with 1 ability each and now you have 1 random with 2 abilities... meaning they take 1 less slot on the 3 hero per unit limit.

So players who play with 'only 1 hero allowed per unit' can actually create one singular 'combo' hero while the rest of their units continue with the enforced '1 hero per unit rule'
And players who have fun with insane hero combos can just make something even more stupidly insane with that extra hero slot freed up and available to work with.

[Kerensky]

I think this is a good place to throw some ideas around.

What will actually happen will be limited by what is technically possible for the game to do of course... but we can always dream and make wish lists.

[Retributarr]

I think this is a good place to throw some ideas around.

What will actually happen will be limited by what is technically possible for the game to do of course... but we can always dream and make wish lists.

"Kerensky!"... remember that posting that I did on 'German-Infrared-Weaponry'... so!... perhaps consider including inclusively what was considered there... for a possible late-war consolation prestige point acquisition , … but and however... at some-determined length of time just before the considered 'Technologies' actual debut' on the scene!.

Also!.. what about the "Amerika-Bomber"... I believe that 'Hermann Göerring ' gave the authorization to go ahead with the project.

What about the 'Oil-Fields' in the Caucasus?... if you don't secure them within a specified determined time-period, well... then... you will certainly have concerning 'Fuel-Supply-Issues' to deal with... such as reduced movement on the Game-Board for the rest of the game potentially?. So!... now!... to get around that dreadful consternation... what if you actually then have happened to have had enough 'Prestige-Points' for your discretionary use... to then resolve this menacing problem?. You could at this point... purchase that 'Actuality'... to now make it happen!... to make it effective immediately!.

What about using 'Prestige-Points' to enhance your 'Heroes'???... maybe... lets say only one or two through-out the Game?. Enhancement!... only by a determined measured amount... not an unlimited amount!.

What about the 'Battle of the Bulge', how about using 'Prestige-Points' to enhance your spy intelligence services... to say... place your bets on a successful 'Reconnaissance' to locate the American 'Fuel-Supply-Depot'... to make the urgent break-through to Antwerp!. You might have to rig-it... such that the player just only gets to try this effort once and once only... so that the Game cannot just be re-loaded again and again until success is achieved. How that could be done is not for me to say.

Anyway!... these are just a few ideas that came to mind... have fun!.

[WalterTFD]

So, like, the problem of Prestige has come up a number of times, and I've never really found a good place to put my thoughts on it down.

Fundamentally, I think a thing Kerensky said earlier is the most important thing to keep in mind.

Running out of Prestige sucks and feels bad. The devs have to keep the Prestige flowing because running out of it is a Feels Bad Experience. So this is a task that can never be made too difficult.

So they have to err on the side of generosity, because if they err on the side of being stingy with the prestige the players won't have fun. But there's another factor which makes this even worse.

Prestige is affected by difficulty level, but also beyond that by whether or not the player has taken Liberator/Trophies of War. Even worse, the hero seed's # of envelopment heroes and shock attack heroes is the single biggest factor.

All of that is to say that there's no way to balance Prestige, and, further, if you did manage to do so, it would only be for one one particular point on the 'lots of capture heroes/few capture heroes' spectrum.

When I play, I always trade any amount Prestige for literally anything else, because I have a pair of shock attack heroes so I'm always capturing enemies.

I don't think, in the context of a DLC, there's any way to change this mechanic, it's bedrock to the structure of the game. If you feel like cutting our Prestige by 50%, 75%, setting it to a fixed value/whatever, everyone will take it.

I think you should, instead of interacting with Prestige, just use the new Commendation Point mechanics for anything optional. Players get them when they accomplish bonus/challenge objectives, we spend them on better units/heroes. If you want to do the 'pay a cost' to get stronger/weaker enemies, Commendation Points are infinitely better than Prestige as a mechanic.

Honestly, I think the game would be improved without Prestige at all. That's how it plays to anyone who's not going to herculean efforts to avoid acquiring it. But DLC can't rework stuff that far, so I'd just leave it alone as a mostly vestigial system and focus your efforts on the more workable Commendation Points.

[sakura006]

I think it's really a bad idea of paying to not deal with de Gaulle. Why would I pay for less content? I would only pay for more challenges, not less. Prestige is just a measurement of a player's skill level. A player has excessive prestige because what he spends is less than what he pays, and the game is easy compared to his skill level. If it is already easy, what's the point of giving a player more advantages? It only let the player earn more prestige. It is also a bad idea to do the opposite though (paying to deal with de Gaulle). I just don't think it is a good idea to hide contents behind a prestige wall. A dynamic difficulty level based on prestige could work, but it serves a similar purpose to special challenges. Even if a dynamic difficulty is applied, players can still choose to bypass it by turning units in reserve. Eventually it will be just the same as special challenges.

I would suggest to add a soft cap on the amount of prestige that a player can spend each turn. In that case, a player will have to carefully choose which unit they need to replace during a mission even though they still have excessive prestige. And of course the soft cap should be scaled with the difficulty level so that less skillful players can still have fun. Although I am not sure how feasible from a programming standpoint at this stage.

[Obersturmbannfuhrer]

Some of things I was neutral on
1. Commendation rewards had a mixed result to me. Some of them like the prototype planes were awesome while the captured soviet equipment ranged from sweet to really lackluster. Like there wasn't a single commendation point that gave any T34s! That felt like a mistake that could've made some of the commendation investments make it feel more worthwhile to get.

disagree, you can capture any number of T34s as you please, why would it be advisable to buy them from commendation points? i would like to buy something from commendation that you can't in any other way, prototype stuff, foreign country stuff and heroes

and i like that you can buy aircrafts from them, because if you play with denying air force like me, it is important to be able to still buy some air power

[kverdon]

I like the idea of using prestige to make a few combo heroes. I play with the 1 hero per unit trait (which is really one hero per NEW unit trait as many of my older units have 2-3 heroes still).

Prestige resets that put forth a % reduction don’t work well as it is too easy to get around. Just buy a bunch of expensive units and stash them in the reserve as a “prestige bank” and sell them off later.

[Scrapulous]

disagree, you can capture any number of T34s as you please, why would it be advisable to buy them from commendation points? i would like to buy something from commendation that you can't in any other way, prototype stuff, foreign country stuff and heroes

and i like that you can buy aircrafts from them, because if you play with denying air force like me, it is important to be able to still buy some air power

I think this post has the answer to Kerensky's question: "What do players want from prestige dumps at the beginning of a DLC?"

Allow players to buy things with these dumps that can't otherwise be had. Captured foreign aircraft. Perhaps even core naval units, if you plan to have more naval engagements. Special foreign infantry, like the Azul Infanterie and Sahariana units. Italian aircraft. Some Hungarian volunteer who is a good hero.

I understand that not all players want all of these things, so if the dev team could build some kind of choice menu function into the commendation points dialogue, then I think that would really enhance the design: let the players choose to buy the hero, or the Savoia-Marchetti planes, or the 5 strength PzVI in '41 or whatever.

[Xenos]

Thanks for your feedback, and of course to everyone else with their feedback on the latest content!

I've seen a few threads mention a few bits of constructive criticism by now, but instead of the normal platitudes, I will say one thing, and ask one thing.

The Toldi I debuting as basically just a same stat Panzer IIC with a different skin... all I say is to give us a little patience here. Believe or not, this is part of an intentional plan, and deliberately not changing Toldi I stats is part of that long term plan.
I'm sure it rings hollow right now, but hopefully all can be revealed in the future! It's all about set up and pay offs.


And what I would ask:

There are a lot of tools in the kit of prestige management, but I guess it's clear that some people aren't engaging with those tools (maybe because they don't find certain Extra Challenge modes fun for example). Also, there are prestige sinks and the possibility of the prestige reset (we did a 8500 reset for Sea Lion).

If we put in a Prestige Reset event at the very start of... the next DLC, what is something players would want to engage with?
If Axis Minor nation equipment stocks or captured equipment isn't enough, what could we entice players with instead, so they properly engage with a prestige reset so their next DLC experience isn't spoiled by 100k+ banked prestige?

Now of course those players who use special tactics and General traits to re-inflate their prestige are going to play that way because they want to play that way. I don't want to force anyone to play any which way, so I can only encourage those players to try new ways to play with new General trait combinations...

But maybe we can throw out some ideas for what a Prestige Reset Event might offer? An event that will happen extremely early into a future campaign, not a mid campaign or near end event either.

The most obvious thing that comes to my mind is a hero that has abilities that cannot be randomly rolled for (+movement, +range, +ammo total, these sorts of traits). But I'm sure the players not inclined to play with more heroes won't be partial to that. What else can we add to a Prestige Reset?

What if we did a really whacky idea:

If you accept a Prestige Reset, special extra elite enemies will not appear in several upcoming scenarios. Imagine if at the start of 1940, you could pay prestige to not have to deal with du Gaulle, as an example of what this might look like. Or accept a Prestige Reset to do the opposite... accept the Reset make enemies also stronger. +2 strength to all enemy units, separate from or even on top of the potential +5 strength option that already exists in Extra Challenges.

I have no idea if it's even possible, but something that would be a nice reward: One time offer for ability to combine heroes. Take Hero A and combine them with Hero B. In effect you take 2 randoms with 1 ability each and now you have 1 random with 2 abilities... meaning they take 1 less slot on the 3 hero per unit limit.

So players who play with 'only 1 hero allowed per unit' can actually create one singular 'combo' hero while the rest of their units continue with the enforced '1 hero per unit rule'
And players who have fun with insane hero combos can just make something even more stupidly insane with that extra hero slot freed up and available to work with.

Big prestige sinks for additional core slots would be cool. Like, spending your influence to have high command assign more resources to your panzergruppe.

[Kerensky]

Big prestige sinks for additional core slots would be cool. Like, spending your influence to have high command assign more resources to your panzergruppe.

Hmm, but it's already possible to manipulate your designated CORE slots. Infantry General, Panzer General, and the big whammy of Auxiliary Force.

[BaronVonKrieg]

Big prestige sinks for additional core slots would be cool. Like, spending your influence to have high command assign more resources to your panzergruppe.

Hmm, but it's already possible to manipulate your designated CORE slots. Infantry General, Panzer General, and the big whammy of Auxiliary Force.

what about requisition system, like hear me out, you spend prestige to get prototypes that you can then buy with more prestige, or somehow influence your allies like Italians start p40 production earlier, or develop S.55 planes early Hungarians start on TAS 44 design, Croatia Sends you 369th devil division like it should have irl for Stalingrad options with this are limitless, or use prestige to change strategic strategy for example ignore some of Hitlers decisions, i see that the dlcs are already railroading us on a path to defeat just like it was case with GC in PC1, i mean that okay i still enjoy the game very much but in the end when you see that your victories just don't matter kinda bums me out

[DarkBlueInk]

What I would really like to see is a combination of (1) lower cost in prestige to use captured units combined with (2) a limit in the available German resupply units - higher than prototypes but not unlimited and (3) a limit to the amount of prestige that can be spent repairing/replacing units each turn during battle.

The idea is to put a hard limit on what you can spend prestige on regardless of the size of your bank account and bring the reality of limited supply for German equipment into the game. It would also give some reason to use equipment (both German and captured) that is not top of the line.

If captured units cost less prestige, then the prestige earned when capturing them would be less, which would help reduce the huge amounts of prestige in the bank. Going a step further, I would be fine if capturing an enemy unit only gave 50% prestige yet cost 75% prestige to deploy.

I think these could be a General Trait or Traits that players could select to inject more realism and challenge into their games.

[Retributarr]

The idea is to put a hard limit on what you can spend prestige on regardless of the size of your bank account and bring the reality of limited supply for German equipment into the game. It would also give some reason to use equipment (both German and captured) that is not top of the line.

If captured units cost less prestige, then the prestige earned when capturing them would be less, which would help reduce the huge amounts of prestige in the bank. Going a step further, I would be fine if capturing an enemy unit only gave 50% prestige yet cost 75% prestige to deploy.

I think these could be a General Trait or Traits that players could select to inject more realism and challenge into their games.

Your onto something here!... "DarkBlueInk"... what you have proposed seems to me at least... at the outset... is a winning strategy for dealing with this vexing situation. Maybe... some others can flesh out your idea... by incorporating other adjustments to still improve the basic premise even more... we shall see. But!... great work and effort on your part in any case!.

[NightPhoenix]

Once again i think the most amazing solution to all prestige problems is: to allow people to adjust prestige gain by a simple slider - so you can get more or less prestige however you want. This can increase/decrease the difficulty for you without having to also opt for enemy supersoldiers at the 4th and 5th difficulty level. Or do challenges which some people might really not like to do. You also no longer need more and more prestige sinks/resets. This i think will solve all those problems.

[Scrapulous]

What I would really like to see is a combination of (1) lower cost in prestige to use captured units combined with (2) a limit in the available German resupply units - higher than prototypes but not unlimited and (3) a limit to the amount of prestige that can be spent repairing/replacing units each turn during battle.

I agree 100% with this idea and have made the same suggestion myself. In no war are reinforcements, and especially materiel, unlimited. This idea would:

1. Reduce the distorting impact of high prestige
2. Make captured/gift/hidden cache units more useful - no more "This gift unit is only as good as a PzII!" but instead "Whew, I now effectively have more PzII!"
3. Eliminate the silly situation where Panthers become available and suddenly your entire core is Panthers - they still have to manufacture the tanks
4. Increase the impact of certain general traits
5. Make the decision to reinforce a unit have a strategic element

Some things would have to be figured out, like how gift units work in this system, and some code support and research to determine how much to add to the player's reserves of each unit type each day/week/month/whatever. But I think the rewards would be well worth it in adding interesting dimensions to the game.

[impossible]

re well balanced - picking "reduced supply" makes the dlc unplayable. scenario 1 - you get 2 (!!!!!! <<<) fuel per turn.

[adiekmann]

Kerensky, I have put some thought into your question: what interesting/worthwhile reward can you exchange your prestige for that won't alienate any particular group of players?

I propose some kind of unique unit, like the Azul infantry. One that has possibly a unique/slightly different model that makes it stand out as well (e.g. again like the Azul) and built-in special stat/perks (e.g. Azul's Rapid Fire 1.5x).

However, what kind of unit? Maybe something that is buffed but not necessarily a type that everyone usually buys or uses, like a recon, AT, or AA gun. It's hero or special stats would not be transferrable like Elsa Kloss. At the same time it should not be grossly overpowered (e.g. +9 Attack & +9 Defense )

I remember in nikivdd's "revised" N. African campaigns for PC1, he included at the outset a buffed custom hero attached to a recon unit. I was one of those who normally rarely if ever used recon in PC1. However, with that buffed unit's stats, he became really useful! I also personally find those kinds of rewards/units just as interesting, if not more, than simply a powerful hero like Bär or Galland.

Anyway, that's my two cents worth...

[DarkBlueInk]

I like what @adiekmann has proposed. You have to take care of and protect this hero/unit or it can be lost forever, unlike Galland (and other heros) who can be shot down over and over again and always comes back.

[Duedman]

Prestige could be sunk by offering gambling options.
Dont like the hero roll? Reroll for 10% of your prestige!

Also I'm split on the possibility to switch General Traits in between each DLC. Make each change cost prestige maybe?
But it should always be a percentage cost I think