Newbie "Campaigns" army size question

[Fodderland]

New player to the game (and loving it, btw) - but had a question on the "Campaigns". I'm doing "Spain vs Dutch" as my first campaign; playing on the lowest difficulty even - and in every battle, I find I'm outnumbered - (even if the map suggests my force is larger) sometimes by just 20% or so, but, frequently, closer to 2-1, and sometimes worse than that. One battle had 8 Dutch pike/shot formations, vs my 2, for example. Is this typical, or am I doing something stupid? (or, both?)

[Athos1660]

The answer is : as always in Pike and Shot, things are very well thought, so that your experience is as historical as possible.

1) There is a fog of war (manual, p. 85) :

The points value reported when you mouse over enemy armies is adjusted by a Fog of War factor - the reported points will be between 75 and 133% of the true value. This uncertainty applies equally to player and AI decision-making. Decisions on whether an army should retreat from an enemy army, or whether AI armies attack, are based on estimates of the enemy adjusted by the Fog of War factor.

2) Additional militia and garrison troops (p. 87) :

If a battle occurs, the side who owns the province may have additional militia or garrison troops added to their army.

So one might think of :
- making one"s own army say 125-150% of the reported value of the enemy
- waiting for the AI to attack first in one's provinces.

But another factor must be taken into account : the bigger you'll make your army (compared to your enemy), the more often the (wise) AI will want to retreat (and not to attack), so you'll have to offer it battles that are fair or (slightly) to its advantage if you want to play the battles and defeat his armies.

So imho you have to begin mastering the game and be confortable with the AI before playing the Campaigns.

Thus my advice would be to start playing (quite) a few Skirmish battles, a mode where the rules above (fog of war, additional troops and retreat) don't apply. The Campaign mode is imho harder than the Skirmish one.

[Fodderland]

Here's a few examples of the battles I've been getting stuck with:

1)

The attachment PikeShot_18_vs_5.jpg is no longer available

That's 18 enemy P/S units vs my 5. This battle was more like "BlackHawk Down" or "300" -- I found the narrowest point in the terrain I could and defended, and, actually won that fight.

2) Next battle, I had ONE P/S unit - they had ... 13:

The attachment PS_13_vs_1.jpg is no longer available

The attachment PikeShot_18_vs_5.jpg is no longer available

This one I wasn't so lucky - the terrain was more open and I was overrun. 13->1.

[Fodderland]

Looks like some of the images didn't take above. Here's the next battle - I screenied the campaign map before the battle, to show the force estimates:

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My map estimate

me_1250.jpg (38.53 KiB) Viewed 1816 times

[Fodderland]

The AI's map-estimate:

them_1105.jpg (43.86 KiB) Viewed 1814 times

[Fodderland]

The "casualties" screen at the start of the battle, showing the force numbers

begin_casualties.jpg (76.73 KiB) Viewed 1813 times

[Athos1660]

I too noticed that, when Force selection is on 'Auto', ie when AI chooses the units, whatever in Skirmish mode or in Campaigns, given the Army lists, AI tends to provide some armies (such as the English 1623-1633 or the Dutch 1649-1688) with lots of cheap(er) and (more) raw/mediocre units and other (such as the Spanish or the French of the same periods) with only a few expensive and good units, so there's a sizeable imbalance in terms of numbers of units (but not in terms of strength (1) ).

As I for one am not a fan of such matchups, I often prefer to play matchups with armies of the same 'category' (such as French vs Spanish...).

_________________________

(1) In the casualties screen, 'Original Strength' only means 'Number of men', not 'Strength' as I mean it here, ie given the troop quality).

[rbodleyscott]

I too noticed that, when Force selection is on 'Auto', ie when AI chooses the units, whatever in Skirmish mode or in Campaigns, given the Army lists, AI tends to provide some armies (such as the English 1623-1633 or the Dutch 1649-1688) with lots of cheap(er) and (more) raw/mediocre units and other (such as the Spanish or the French of the same periods) with only a few expensive and good units, so there's a sizeable imbalance in terms of numbers of units (but not in terms of strength (1) ).

Most players give preference to picking higher quality units. The AI just chooses roughly in proportion to the number of available units of each type in the army list. Inevitably this means that AI armies tend to be more numerous but of lower quality.

As you say, this tends to exacerbate the AI's apparent advantage in number of units, but (assuming the points system is valid) the actual AI advantage in overall combat power is a lot less than the raw numbers would suggest.

[Athos1660]

I too noticed that, when Force selection is on 'Auto', ie when AI chooses the units, whatever in Skirmish mode or in Campaigns, given the Army lists, AI tends to provide some armies (such as the English 1623-1633 or the Dutch 1649-1688) with lots of cheap(er) and (more) raw/mediocre units and other (such as the Spanish or the French of the same periods) with only a few expensive and good units, so there's a sizeable imbalance in terms of numbers of units (but not in terms of strength (1) ).

Most players give preference to picking higher quality units. The AI just chooses roughly in proportion to the number of available units of each type in the army list. Inevitably this means that AI armies tend to be more numerous but of lower quality.

As you say, this tends to exacerbate the AI's apparent advantage in number of units, but (assuming the points system is valid) the actual AI advantage in overall combat power is a lot less than the raw numbers would suggest.

(edit)

This does explain the differences in composition between an army chosen by the AI and one chosen by a human player, ie why there are (often) more units in AI's armies than in a player's army .

But it does not explain the differences in composition between armies made by the AI (still in terms of number of units), which was the second factor/phenomenon I wanted to point out : a late Spanish army made by the AI will have far fewer units than a Dutch 1649-1688 army made by the AI. Likewise when the AI is the English 1623-1633, there will be LOTS of units compared to other armies made by the AI. It certainly is because of how the Army lists are (costs and troop qualities). But this is in such an extend that, with such armies as Dutch AI, I prefer reducing their force points a bit (this is just a personal preference).

Same settings (open battle, medium force, medium difficulty, auto force selection), the first two examples I come across, clicking on Skirmish as French 1670-1690 vs :

1) Spanish 1649-1688
Guns : 2
Veteran P&S : 1
Raw P&S : 2
P&S : 6
Horse : 7
Vet Horse : 4
_____________
Total : 22 units

2) Dutch
Guns : 1
Dragoons : 1
P&S + LG : 5
P&S : 7
Raw P&S : 3
Unarmoured Horse : 11
Vet Unarmoured Horse : 1
_________________
Total : 29

PS : The composition of the French with Auto Force selection (vs the 29 Dutch units above) :
Vet P&S : 1
Raw P&S : 2
Later P&S : 4
Gun : 1
Dragons : 2
Vet Unarmoured Horse (Shock) : 7
Unarmoured Horse (Shock) : 3
______________________
Total : 20 units

This is three random examples of Armies made by the AI, but quite typical.

[rbodleyscott]

As I say, when the AI picks the army composition, the units are chosen (with a large random element) roughly in proportion to the number of each type in the army list. If you don't like how they pan out for some armies, you could make a custom version of the Sandbox Campaigns module, with modded army lists.

I should also note that in campaigns, when local/garrison forces are added to an army (player or AI), they are weighted towards the cheaper, lower quality types in the army list. That is another factor in inflating the numbers of lower quality units in AI armies. If the army list does not have any/many lower quality units, higher quality units will get used instead for the local/garrison forces. That further increases the discrepancy between unit numbers in AI generated Spanish and Dutch armies in Campaigns.