Early Archaemenid Persian 700pt for tourney

[HansJansen]

Hi,

I want to use Early Archaemenid Persian at a tourney.

I came up with this list.

Any help would be welcome. This is also my first attempt at a tournament, so also any tips in playing the army is needed.

3 tc
4 Persian/Median Calvary
4 Persian/Median Calvary
8 Immortals armoured
8 Immortals armoured
8 Other Persian/Median/ Hyrkanian/Kissian/Persian Gulf Exile foot
8 Other Persian/Median/ Hyrkanian/Kissian/Persian Gulf Exile foot
6 Other Persian/Median/ Hyrkanian/Kissian/Persian Gulf Exile foot
6 Other Persian/Median/ Hyrkanian/Kissian/Persian Gulf Exile foot
6 Other Persian/Median/ Hyrkanian/Kissian/Persian Gulf Exile foot
6 Lydian or Asiatic Greek hoplites armoured average

699pt

thanks,

Hans Jansen

[rbodleyscott]

If you are only going to have 6 of them, I don't really see the point of having any hoplites at all.

[david53]

If you are only going to have 6 of them, I don't really see the point of having any hoplites at all.

being average they'd be better in 8's

[HansJansen]

I am only allowed 6 of them according to the army list. How is more than 6 possible ? (8?)
should I rather have extra Other Persian/Median/ Hyrkanian/Kissian/Persian Gulf Exile foot ?

[chrisrivers]

The special campaign section of the list has "Medizing" Greeks that can have 0-16 armored hoplites.

[HansJansen]

1. Can I thusly add troops from special campaigns for tournaments?
2. Should I add more of this troop, or add other units?

Have I mentioned that I am a newbie?

[rbodleyscott]

I am only allowed 6 of them according to the army list. How is more than 6 possible ? (8?)
should I rather have extra Other Persian/Median/ Hyrkanian/Kissian/Persian Gulf Exile foot ?

More is possible in 479 BC - see the special campaign section. Then you can have up to 22 including the Ionian ones.

1. Can I thusly add troops from special campaigns for tournaments?

Yes, unless the tournament rules specify otherwise - which they usually don't.

As an example, here is the 725 AP army I used at a recent tournament:

2 x 4 Persian Cavalry, Cv Armoured, Superior, Undrilled, Bow, Swordsmen
1 x 4 Horse Archers, LH Unprotected, Average, Undrilled, Bow
2 x 8 Hoplites , HF Armoured, Average, Undrilled, Offensive Spearmen
1 x 4 Hoplites, HF Protected, Average, Undrilled, Offensive Spearmen
1 x 4 Greek javelinmen, LF Unprotected, Poor, Undrilled, Javelins, Light Spear
2 x 6 Immortals, MF Armoured, Superior, Drilled, Light Spear, Bow
2 x 6 Other Persian etc foot, MF Protected, Average, Undrilled, Light Spear, Bow / Bow
1 x IC
2 x TC

[david53]

1. Can I thusly add troops from special campaigns for tournaments?
2. Should I add more of this troop, or add other units?

Have I mentioned that I am a newbie?

Just had a look at the list yes you can only have 6 Lydian hopilites.

But a cunning plan is take Special Campaign 479 Armoured average offensive spear take 2 BG of eight in three ranks 3.3.2. To pay for this drop all your Persian foot apart from Immortals take them as armoured if you can and 2 BG of Light foot bow each of 8 bases. That way you have solid foot.
dave

[HansJansen]

Here is a new list based on some advice:


3 TC
4 Persian/Median Calvary
4 Persian/Median Calvary
6 Immortals armoured
6 Immortals armoured
6 Other Persian/Median/ Hyrkanian/Kissian/Persian Gulf Exile foot
6 Other Persian/Median/ Hyrkanian/Kissian/Persian Gulf Exile foot
4 Bactrian cavalry
6 Lydian or Asiatic Greek hoplites armoured average
8 Medizing Greek hoplites armoured
8 Medizing Greek hoplites armoured
699pt

Any thoughts

[grahambriggs]

I agree that you want to either have lots of hoplites or none. You might like to have some skirmishers? You might find that the undrilled MF are too weak in melee to have that many of them.

[HansJansen]

I would love to take the MF bow out for LF bow, but then dates conflict

[marioslaz]

I agree that you want to either have lots of hoplites or none. You might like to have some skirmishers? You might find that the undrilled MF are too weak in melee to have that many of them.

OK, it's a tournament. But shouldn't we aspect at least some persian BGs in a Persian army? Anyway, at least 12 bases of persian infantry are needed.

[HansJansen]

3 TC
4 Persian/Median Calvary
4 Persian/Median Calvary
6 Immortals armoured
6 Immortals armoured
6 Other Persian/Median/ Hyrkanian/Kissian/Persian Gulf Exile foot (Can't have LF, because of date conflicting with the required in 479 for Medizing Greek hoplites)
6 Other Persian/Median/ Hyrkanian/Kissian/Persian Gulf Exile foot
4 Bactrian cavalry
6 Lydian or Asiatic Greek hoplites armoured average
8 Medizing Greek hoplites armoured
8 Medizing Greek hoplites armoured

699pt


OR


3 TC
4 Persian/Median Calvary
4 Persian/Median Calvary
6 Immortals armoured
6 Immortals armoured
6 Other Persian/Median/ Hyrkanian/Kissian/Persian Gulf Exile foot
6 Other Persian/Median/ Hyrkanian/Kissian/Persian Gulf Exile foot
6 Other Persian/Median/ Hyrkanian/Kissian/Persian Gulf Exile foot
6 Other Persian/Median/ Hyrkanian/Kissian/Persian Gulf Exile foot
6 Other Persian/Median/ Hyrkanian/Kissian/Persian Gulf Exile foot
6 Other Persian/Median/ Hyrkanian/Kissian/Persian Gulf Exile foot
4 Saka Cavalry CAV (or is LH better?)

699pt

Which army, and what tactics can I use, and what are the weaknesses I need to avoid, and how can I improve these lists?

Thanks for all the help,

Hans Jansen.

[david53]

I would love to take the MF bow out for LF bow, but then dates conflict

In the optional troop types you can take LF Bow and LF Javilin no date restriction that i can see

[david53]

I agree that you want to either have lots of hoplites or none. You might like to have some skirmishers? You might find that the undrilled MF are too weak in melee to have that many of them.

OK, it's a tournament. But shouldn't we aspect at least some persian BGs in a Persian army? Anyway, at least 12 bases of persian infantry are needed.

Historicaly did'nt the Persians use thousands of Greek Hopilites in their wars both against Greeks and in their Civil Wars. To stand a better chance with this army in a comp taking Greeks seems like a good move. I understand you saying use Persians in their army but you have Cavalry Immortials and the lights Persian.

[HansJansen]

Yes, no restriction in optional LF,
BUT
I have to have 12 required MF if I take Medizing Greek hoplites

[Eques]

historically it was more in the LAP period that the persians filled their armies with mercenary hoplites - excepting the plataea campaign when some greek cities sided with the invaders.

I think its kind of cheating using hoplites to win your battles as a 'persian'. might as well have a classical greek army if hoplites are your thing.

[HansJansen]

historically it was more in the LAP period that the persians filled their armies with mercenary hoplites - excepting the plataea campaign when some greek cities sided with the invaders.

I think its kind of cheating using hoplites to win your battles as a 'persian'. might as well have a classical greek army if hoplites are your thing.

Thanks for the criticism. Now to be helpful, could you rather help me make a competitive Early Archaemenid Persian list. (I listed 2 lists - help me then make the first list competitive, if you regard the second as cheating)

[david53]

historically it was more in the LAP period that the persians filled their armies with mercenary hoplites - excepting the plataea campaign when some greek cities sided with the invaders.

I think its kind of cheating using hoplites to win your battles as a 'persian'. might as well have a classical greek army if hoplites are your thing.

Thanks for the criticism. Now to be helpful, could you rather help me make a competitive Early Archaemenid Persian list. (I listed 2 lists - help me then make the first list competitive, if you regard the second as cheating)

You are not cheating anyone if you use Greeks how can you if they are in the Army List you can use them. If you were playing against me in the Comp you'd not be cheating, all armies go past a list checker.

Entering a comp with Medium Average Protected undrilled Bow/light Spear is a very brave move.

Why leave out one of the better troop types available to you.

Take the Persaian Cavalry, and Persian Infantry that you have too plus the Immortals and then take the remaining points in Greek Infantry no worries and enjoy the games.

The tactics Keep the hopilites in the middle the Immortals on their flanks as being medium they are good at moving and turning getting around the flanks ect. The Cavalry can stay on the flanks moving to the enemy camp ect. Apart from that level terrian and move forward get to close combat quickly.
Dave

[rbodleyscott]

Take the Persaian Cavalry, and Persian Infantry that you have too plus the Immortals and then take the remaining points in Greek Infantry no worries and enjoy the games.

The tactics Keep the hopilites in the middle the Immortals on their flanks as being medium they are good at moving and turning getting around the flanks ect.

Deploy the "other MF" last, and the Immortals second from last. You want the Immortals to face a good match-up and the the "other MF" to face nothing solid at all. That way their shooting can be effective but they won't get run over by the enemy's close-combat troops.

Of course, it helps to have an IC so that you deploy second.

I am normally in favour of all TCs, but for the EAP (for a variety of reasons) I think an IC is particularly good value.

One reason is that the armoured Greek hoplites are particularly good in melee but are disadvantaged in the Impact phase vs pikemen and legionaries. It is therefore quite likely that they will lose the Impact phase combat, and hence anything that increases their chance of remaining steady is a good thing. The IC adds an extra +1 CT modifier (compared with a TC) to one BG, which makes the difference surprisingly often. Also, the reason my list (see my previous post) has a BG of 4 Asiatic hoplites is so that they can provide an extra +1 CT modifier for rear support to both larger BGs of hoplites by standing in a column behind the join between the BGs. That being their role, there is no point in having 6 of them, and I saved a further 8 points by making them Protected, which allowed me a BG of 4 Poor LF - useful for slowing the enemy movement and to increase the number of BGs in the army.

PS I won the small tournament I entered with the above army, and did not suffer a single attrition point in any of the four games.