Vae Victis - a 4th century BC Italy campaign

[kronenblatt]

We'll also be trying out a more tactical approach for a campaign in fourth century BC Italy. Aptly named Vae Victis!

Each player will control two armies from his own faction, moving around and fighting armies from other factions, on a detailed hex map, competing against the other players in attempts to conquer each other's lands and using the terrain and structures on the map to achieve that end. And above all of course, fighting it out in Field of Glory II:Ancients games.

Armies from the awesome TT mod will be used.

The armies involved are (in that order, depending on number of players):
1. Etruscan 330-280 BC
2. Roman 340-281 BC
3. Samnite 355-272 BC
4. Greek (Western) 380-281 BC
5. Umbrian 490-260 BC
6. Gallic Lowland Tribes 390-301 BC

We're currently 8 players and may add 2 more (bringing us to 10 and enabling teams of two players co-operating with one army each from the same faction), depending on time and final outline of rules, so if you'd like to participate too, write me a PM.

[kronenblatt]

Overview

Each player represents and controls an army from one of the factions of mid-to-late fourth-century BC Italy. Players fight for their factions' dominance over the other factions, co-operating within their factions and together competing against other factions.

The campaign ends as soon as one of the following conditions is fulfilled (whichever is the earlier):

• All armies within a faction have been irrevocably eliminated.

• The strength of all armies within a faction is below 1200 FP.

The winner of the tournament is the faction and all its players with the highest number of victory points at the end of the campaign, and if a tie, with the highest number of controlled Cities and Towns (with each Town counting as only 0.5).


Victory points

Victory points are allocated at the end of each round to the factions of each of the armies as follows:

• +1 for each fought engagement (whether winning, losing, or drawing).

• +2 for each won engagement.

• -1 for each drawn engagement.

• -2 for each lost engagement.

• -1 if retreating from engagement (without fighting it).

• +1 if enemy retreating from engagement.

Factions

The factions available are as follows, using the army list of the TT Mod by Paul59:

• Etruscan 330-280 BC, with capital at Arretium.

• Roman 340-281 BC, with capital at Roma.

• Samnite 355-272 BC, with capital at Bovianum.

• Greek (Western) 380-281 BC, with capital at Neapolis.

• Umbrian 490-260 BC, with capital at Hadria.

• Gallic Lowland Tribes 390-301 BC, with capitals at Mediolanum and Verona.

• Carthaginian 340-281 BC, with capital at Lilybaeum.

• Syracusan 412-281 BC, with capital at Syracusae.

• Campanian 420-281 BC.

• Apulian 420-203 BC.

• Bruttian or Lucanian 420-203 BC.

The number of factions depends on the number of participating players, with several different combinations:

• 2 players: divided up into 2 factions.

• 3 players: divided up into 3 factions.

• 4 players: divided up into 2 factions.

• 6 players: divided up into 2 or 3 factions.

• 8 players: divided up into 2 or 4 factions.

• 9 players: divided up into 3 factions.

• 10 players: divided up into 2 or 5 factions.

• 12 players: divided into 3, 4 or 6 factions.

• 16 players: divided into 4 factions.

• 20 players: divided into 4 or 5 factions.

If 4 or more players are participating, each player controls only 1 army. If 2-3 players, it could be preferable for each player to control 2 or if desired even 3 armies, and any references to "the player's army" herein do then mean "each of the player's armies".

Which factions are participating then depends on the number of players and thus factions as well as players' collective preferences and wishes, for example:

Players and armies within a faction are co-operating, while competing with and fighting other factions. Therefore, victory points are allocated to factions and not to individual players. In a similar fashion, structures are controlled by factions and not by individual players. As such, controlling mines makes it possible for all armies within a faction to select mercenaries in engagements, however always subject to the limit of number of mercenary units available applicable upon the faction as a whole in each given round. (For example, if two mines are controlled, the faction may in total use two units of mercenaries in engagements that round, allocated among the armies of the faction.)


Map

The armies of the players move around and fight armies from other factions on (the whole or part of, depending on number of players and factions) a detailed hex map of Italy as portrayed a couple of centuries before the imperial era, with roads, rivers, cities, and towns included and divided up into 15-kilometer-scale hexagons.

Armies are marked on the map with squares, color coded with their faction colors and numbered with their players' numbers. Control over structures is marked on the map through color-coded hexagons.


Download

• The TT Mod v1.5.32b module is needed to set up and play battles in the Vae Victis campaign.

• Download it for TT Mod Multiplayer in the first post of the TT Mod forum thread and install as follows:
  1. Click on the link and download.
  2. You will probably find the downloaded TT_Mod_MPV1.5.32b.rar file in your Downloads folder.
  3. Extract the TT_Mod_MPV1.5.32b.rar file to produce the TT_Mod_MPV1.5.32b folder.
  4. Cut and paste the TT_Mod_MPV1.5.32b folder into My Documents/My Games/FieldOfGlory2/MULTIPLAYER/.

• DO NOT PUT THIS MOD IN YOUR MAIN GAME BUILD!

Starting the campaign

• Each army is placed by its player on the map in one of its faction's controlled Towns and Cities, as starting points.

• It is not allowed to place more than one army of the same faction in the same starting point.

• Every individual army starts with a strength of 1600 FP.

Rounds

Each round consists of the following four phases:

1. Order giving
1.1 The administrator first submit movement instructions for his army by way of PM to two other players; encrypted movement instructions to one player and the decryption key to another.
1.2 All other players thereafter submit movement instructions for their armies, by way of PM to the administrator and in the form specified in GIVING ORDERS below.

2. Movement execution
2.1 Armies move simultaneously, move by move, all armies at the same time and with the moves being conducted by the administrator. If any army enters the Zone of Control (ZoC) of a structure controlled by another faction or an army of another faction, it will be considered to have completed its movement and will make no further movement that round.
2.2 Once all armies have completed their movement, armies from different factions that are located within the ZoC of each other will decide whether to retreat or not (if allowed to), give instructions how to conduct such retreat (if possible). Finally the retreat movements are executed by the administrator.

3. Battle resolution
The armies from different factions that still are located within the ZoC of each other will fight "engagements" (the term used herein for games of battle played in Field of Glory II: Ancients), all such engagements to be simultaneously played and completed in Field of Glory II: Ancients during a period of three weeks.

4. Administration
1. Removal of armies having lost battles, 2. withdrawal of armies having drawn battles, 3. changes of structure control, 4. placement of armies having lost battles, 5. other updates of the map, 6. pool adjustment calculations, 7. transfer of units between armies within a faction, etc., 8. miscellaneous.


Giving orders

Each player provides movement instructions for his army at the beginning of every round. These direction of a moves is based on the sides of the hex and the clock:

• Move up to the right (northeast) = 2

• Move down to the right (southeast) = 4

• Move down (south) = 6

• Move down to the left (southwest) = 8

• Move up to the left (northwest) = 10

• Move up (north) = 12

• Stand still = 0

Movement instructions are expressed as a sequence of individual moves, e.g., 2 4 2 6 0 6, with no other symbols in between, only blanks (for easy copy-pasting by the administrator).

In order for all other players to be comfortable with a situation in which the administrator is a player too and does not base his movement instructions on those of other players, the administrator first of all players sends his encrypted movement instructions to one player (e.g., 7 -4 0 4 5) and the decryption key (additive or subtractive adjustments for each move) to another player (-3 10 0 2 -1), which when combined reveals the administrator's actual movement instructions (e.g., 7-3 -4+10 0+0 4+2 5-1 = 4 6 0 6 4).


Movement

Each army is allocated 12 movement points (MP) at the beginning of each round.

The cost in MP for moving into a hex with a certain terrain is as follows:

• Farmlands = 2 MP

• Desert = 4 MP

• Hills = 6 MP

• Marshes = 8 MP

• Forests = 10 MP

• Mountains = 12 MP

Road hex

• The costs above are halved (i.e., divided by 2) if the hex contains Road, provided that the army moves in the same direction as the Road, i.e., entering the hex through a side that the Roads pass through as well.

• Furthermore, if the cost is halved as per the bullet point immediately above and the Road runs between two controlled Towns or Cities as part of a logistics line of the army's faction, -1 MP is subtracted from the halved cost as an additional benefit.

• Hexes with Cities or Towns in which Roads end or intersect are also treated as containing Roads for the purpose of MP costs.

River hex

• +1 MP extra (added after having adjusting for Roads benefit above), unless the hex also contains a City or a Town.

The cost for moving into a hex can never be lower than 1 MP or higher than 12 MP.

Peaks and Lakes are impassable.

Each instruction to stand still "move" (i.e., each "0" in the movement sequence) costs 1 MP.

All armies move simultaneously and spend their 12 MP, move by move and if necessary MP by MP, all armies at the same time. The moves are conducted by the administrator and presented once all armies' movements have been completed.

No army can at any point in time be located in the same hex as another army, whether from the same or from another faction. An army adjacent to a hex in which an army from even its own faction is located will, if instructed to move to that hex, halt and move no further that round.


Structures

Towns and Cities are two different structures present on the map that will have certain effects and implications and that may be of importance to be controlled or to wrest out of control from enemy factions.

Town (if controlled)

• Provides support due to use of part of the Town's garrison, as reflected by additional FP for engagements taking place within the Town's ZoC.
  • +30 FP in location of Town.

• Recovers strength due to reinforcement to armies that are located the entire round within the ZoC of the Town and neither moves nor fights any engagements.
  • If the Town has an uninterrupted logistics line to any of the capitals of the army's faction, army strength is recovered as follows:
    • +16 FP per round in location of Town.
  • Otherwise, army strength is recovered as follows:
    • +8 FP per round in location of Town.

• Enables the use of an ally in engagements (from among armies allowed for the faction's army in the TT mod) as follows:
  • 1 unit from the ally's army list for each 4 full (i.e., not part of) Towns controlled (counting half as Cities) can be selected.

City (if controlled)

• Provides support due to use of part of the City's garrison, as reflected by additional FP for engagements taking place within the City's ZoC.
  • +60 FP in location of City.
  • +30 FP 1 hex distance from location of City.

• Recovers strength due to reinforcement to armies that are located the entire round within the ZoC of the City and neither moves nor fights any engagements.
  • If the City has an uninterrupted logistics line to any of the capitals of the army's faction, army strength is recovered as follows:
    • +32 FP per round in location of City.
    • +16 FP per round in 1 hex distance from location of City.
  • Otherwise, army strength is recovered as follows:
    • +16 FP per round in location of City.
    • +8 FP per round in 1 hex distance from location of City.

• Enables the use of an ally in engagements (from among armies allowed for the faction's army in the TT mod) as follows:
  • 1 unit from the ally's army list for each 2 full (i.e., not part of) Cities controlled (counting double as Towns) can be selected.

Gaining, losing, and retaining control over structures

• A faction gains control over a structure if the structure at the end of a round (after all engagements have been concluded) is located within the ZoC of one of the faction's armies and not within the ZoC of any other faction's army.

• Any other faction controlling that structure will then be considered to have lost control.

• Thus, in order for a faction to lose control over a structure, another faction must in fact have gained control over that structure, and until that occurs the controlling faction will be considered to still control the structure.

Zones of Control (ZoC)

No armies can march through the ZoC of a structure controlled by another faction or through the ZoC of the army of another faction, but will then halt at the first hex that it enters the ZoC and move no further that round.

The ZoC of armies, navies, and structures is as follows:

• Army = 1 hex around location for all land hexes.

• Navy= 2 hexes around location for Coastal and Sea hexes.

• Town = only its own location for all land hexes, 1 hex around location for Coastal hexes.

• City = 1 hex around location for all land hexes, 2 hexes around location for Coastal hexes.

No armies can march through the ZoC of a structure controlled by another faction or through the ZoC of the army of another faction, but will then halt at the first hex that it enters the ZoC and move no further that round. If an army at the beginning of a round is located within the ZoC of a structure controlled by another faction and if its first movement to another hex is still within the ZoC of that structure, it can move no further than to that one hex within the ZoC before halting again for the remainder of the round.


Lines of logistics

• Logistics lines serve the purpose of enhancing and improving (basically doubling) the level and pace of reinforcements of the strength of an army, with the logistics lines of a faction:
  • originating from all of the capitals of the faction, provided that the capital in question is controlled by its faction;
  • extending :
    
    1. across land: along Road hexes to other Towns and Cities controlled by the faction for as long as no Road hex along the logistics line is "interrupted", i.e., within the ZoC of another faction's army or controlled structure; and/or
    2. across water: along Coastal hexes to other Towns and Cities controlled by the faction for as long as no Coastal hex along the logistics line is "interrupted", i.e., within the ZoC of another faction's navy or controlled structure;
  • ending at the controlled Towns and Cities from where there are no further uninterrupted Road or Coastal hexes to other controlled Towns or Cities farther away.

• Thus, a logistics line always starts at a controlled capital, branching out along uninterrupted Road and Coastal hexes to controlled Towns or Cities, each branch always ending at a controlled Town or City at which and as soon as no further uninterrupted Road or Coastal hexes lead to another controlled Town or City farther away.

• Therefore, if the faction does not control its capital, no logistics line at all can originate from that capital.

• In addition, interrupting a logistics line very close to the capital will cause the whole logistics line farther away to disappear.

• The branches of the faction's logistics lines always end with the last connected Town or City, never at the last uninterrupted Road or Coastal hex.

• Extension and branches via Road hexes (point 1 above) and Coastal hexes (2) can be combined; for example, a logistics line can extend from the capital to a controlled Town via uninterrupted Road hexes, then extend to yet another controlled Town via uninterrupted Coastal hexes, and finally even further along uninterrupted Road hexes (say inland) to another controlled Town.

• Example: The red logistics lines network of the Romans originates at their capital Roma, extending and branching out to nearby controlled Towns and Cities via Road hexes and also to Lavinium and Tarracina via Coastal hexes, and then again further via Road hexes from Tarracina to Lanuvium. It fails however to extend beyond Sutrium since the blue Etruscan army 1 interrupts the road to controlled Volsinii. In addition, the 2-hex naval ZoC of the Etruscan-controlled City Tarquinii effectively interrupts the Coastal hexes to controlled Cosae. Note though that Antium (since being only a Town and thus only 1-hex naval ZoC) even though Etruscan-controlled fails to interrupt the coastal logistics line to controlled Tarracina and that Antium (again a Town with no land ZoC beyond its location) also fails to interrupts the logistics line extending from Tarracina to Lanuvium.

Engagements and battles

Two armies from different factions that at the end of a round are located within each other's ZoC will fight a "engagement" (another expression for and in the form of a Field of Glory II: Ancients game with 1200 FP worth of units in each army) unless one or both armies decide to retreat.

The engagement will in Field of Glory II: Ancients be set up as follows:

• Open Battle scenario.

• Large (40 x 32) map size.

• Map type on the terrain as specified in Map terrain of engagements below.

• Force size for each of the two armies as adjusted in accordance with Army strength and force point adjustment below.

Retreating prior to engagements

An army is allowed to retreat from an engagement if it can move 2 hexes in the direction of one of its faction's capitals (whether controlled or not) without moving within the ZoC of any army from another faction.

Battles

A "battle" consists of one or more engagements between armies from two different factions.

Normally one battle involves only one engagement and thus only one army from each of two factions, but it may consist of several individual engagements involving several armies from each of the two factions, if and to the extent that more than one army from one faction has at least an army from the other faction in common as opponent in engagements.

For example, if two different armies from the same faction are both fighting the same army from a different faction, both these two individual engagements make up the same "battle". If in addition one of these two armies are fighting yet another army from that different faction, that Field of Glory II: Ancients is included in the battle as well.

Other examples (with armies A, B, and C being from one faction, and X, Y, and Z from another):
1. A is fighting X, B is fighting Y, and C is fighting Z in three separate battles, since none of the armies from one faction has an army from the other faction in common.
2. A fighting X as well as Y, B fighting Y, and C fighting Z results in one battle including three engagements; A vs. X, A vs. Y, and B vs. Y (since A and B have Y in common as opponent), whereas C vs. Z is still a separate battle.
3. A fighting X as well as Y, B fighting Y as well as Z, and C fighting Z results in one battle including all these five engagements (since A and B have Y in common as opponent, and B and C have Z in common).

This means that each army can be involved in several engagements but only in one battle each round.


Map terrain of engagements

The engagement played out in Field of Glory II: Ancients will use the map type and terrain of the location of the army having spent the fewest MP that round (until having completed its movement), or if both armies have spent the same amount of MP that round, in falling priority order in the list below.

• Farmlands = Agricultural

• Desert = Desert

• Hills = Hilly

• Forests = Wooded

• Marsh = Marshy

• Mountains = Mountains

All terrain will be of the Mediterranean map type, e.g., Mediterranean Hilly.


Allies in engagements

• A faction that controls Towns and Cities in sufficient numbers can use allies in all its engagements (to the extent allies are available in the TT Mod).

• The number of units from the ally's army list depends on the number of Towns and Cities controlled:
  • Each 2 full (i.e., not part of) Cities controlled and/or each 4 full Towns (i.e., counting half as Cities) allows for 1 ally unit to be selected.
  • Example: controlling 3 Cities and 3 Towns (equivalent to 1.5 Cities), in total 4.5 Cities, allows for up to 2 ally units.

• The ally can never be the same army as the opponent in an engagement.
  • Example: when fighting Etruscans in an engagement, Etruscans can not be selected as allies.

• Using allies is optional for each individual engagement and not at all compulsory, even if sufficient numbers of Cities and/or Towns are controlled.

• The factions have the following allies allowed:
  • Etruscan 330-280 BC: Samnite 355-272 BC, Umbrian 490-260 BC as allies.
  • Gallic Lowland Tribes 390-301 BC: no allies.
  • Greek (Western) 380-281 BC: no allies.
  • Roman 340-281 BC: Bruttian or Lucanian 420-203 BC, Campanian 420-281 BC as allies.
  • Samnite 355-272 BC: Apulian 420-203 BC, Campanian 420-281 BC, Etruscan 330-280 BC, Italian Hill Tribes 490-275 BC, Umbrian 490-260 BC as allies.
  • Umbrian 490-260 BC: Etruscan 330-280 BC, Samnite 355-272 BC as allies.
  • Carthaginian 340-281 BC: Greek (Western) 380-281 BC as allies.
  • Syracusan 412-281 BC: Greek (Western) 380-281 BC, Kyrenean Greek 460-322 BC, Libyan 549-301 BC as allies.

Outcomes and effects of engagements and battles

The results of the individual outcomes of all the engagements within a battle will determine the total outcome of the battle, which in turn will affect whether control of structures is changed and armies are moved from the locations.

A faction and all its armies involved in that battle are considered to have won a battle against an enemy faction if at least one of the faction's engagements in that battle is won and none are lost, with the enemy faction (and all its armies involved) in that battle then considered to have lost the battle. If there is no winner and hence no loser of a battle, the battle is considered to be a draw for the involved factions and armies.

An army having:

• lost a battle is removed from its hex and placed (at its player's choice) in a controlled structure along its logistics lines at least 2 hexes away, or in any of its capitals (if controlled). If none of that is possible, the army is irrevocably eliminated.

• drawn a battle moves 2 hexes away from the armies it fought, in the direction of one of its faction's capitals (whether controlled or not), always without moving within the ZoC of any army from another faction.

• won a battle remains in its hex.

Army strength and force point adjustment

Number of FP used in engagements

• Each army will participate in engagements with a number of FP as follows:
  • Current army strength (1600 FP minus reductions plus reinforcements plus/minus transfers),
  • +30 or +60 FP, if adjustment from controlled Towns and Cities, and
  • -40 FP, if adjustment from River.

Reduction of army strength

• The level of incurred casualties (as shown in the upper left corner of the screen when the Field of Glory II: Ancients game ends) from engagements will reduce the army's strength going forward.

• The reduction amounts to 1 FP per percentage point of incurred casualties.

• An army will suffer army strength reduction from each of its engagements.

• The army strength reduction during a round is calculated and becomes effective only at the end of the round, once all engagements have been concluded.

• Example 1: an army having fought two engagements in a round, suffering incurred casualties of 30% and 40% respectively, will at the end of the round get its strength additionally reduced by 70 (=30+40) FP.

• Example 2: if the army in example 1 had already in previous rounds suffered reduced army strength of 120 FP to 1480 (=1600-120) FP, its new army strength thus becomes 1410 (=1480-70) FP.

Reinforcement of army strength

• An army that neither moves nor fights any engagements during a round can recover strength if located the entire round within the ZoC of a controlled structure.

• If that controlled structure has an uninterrupted logistics line to any of the capitals of the army's faction, army strength is recovered as follows:
  • Town: +16 FP per round in location of Town.
  • City: +32 FP per round in location of City, +16 FP per round in 1 hex distance from location of City.

• Otherwise, army strength is recovered as follows:
  • Town: +8 FP per round in location of Town.
  • City: +16 FP per round in location of City, +8 FP per round in 1 hex distance from location of City.

• The strength of an army can never increase above 1600 FP through reinforcement or any other action taken.

• Reinforcement becomes effective at the end of the round.

Transfer of strength between armies

• Armies within the same faction that at the beginning of a round are connected through the faction's logistics lines can transfer FP between them, increasing the strength of the receiving army and decreasing the strength of the giving army.

• The player of the giving army provides details of the transfer as part of his movement instructions for that army.

• Such FP then takes the full round to transfer between the armies (before arriving at the end of the same round) and is during the round not included in the strengths of any of the armies.

• The aggregate FP transferred between two armies can never exceed 100 FP.

• The strength of an army can never increase above 1600 FP through transfer or any other action taken.

Force point adjustment from structures and terrain

Controlled Towns and Cities

• An army located within the ZoC of a controlled Town or City will adjust its FP for the engagement as follows:
  • Town: +30 FP in location of Town.
  • City: +60 FP in location of City, +30 FP in 1 hex distance from location of City.

Rivers

• If at least one of the two armies in an engagement is located in a River hex (with no Town or City), the army (if any) that spent the most MP that round (until having completed its movement) will adjust its FP for the engagement as follows:
  • -40 FP.

• If the two armies have spent an equal amount of MP, none of them will suffer a FP penalty.

• This adjustment aims at reflecting the hazzles of an army having to attack across or along a river, reducing its combat power.

[kronenblatt]

[kronenblatt]

Rules are now completed, see second post of this thread.

But of course still in draft format. So if you're interested in participating, please have a look there and let me know whether they're understandable (and what's not) and make sense.

[batesmotel]

I'm interested. Are Sicily or other islands in play? A quick glance didn't seem to show any reference to naval/sea movement.

Chris

[Karvon]

I feel the FP loss ratio is far too low; If you wipe out 40% of the enemy army and he only loses 40 FP that's not even the cost of an average heavy foot unit.

In this time period, a loser lost a much higher proportion of his losses as his wounded on the field would either be slaughtered or enslaved by the victor, more would be lost due to enemy pursuit, fewer stragglers and deserters would rally to a losing cause. Conversely, the winner holding the field could recover and treat a higher proportion of his wounded and more stragglers and deserters would be rallied to the winning standards.

Based on historical trends, for simplicity sake, I'd say 20% of losses were dead, 40% seriously wounded and 40% lightly wounded/fled. I would calculate that in terms of the army's original FP.

Obviously the dead are not recoverable.
I'd say the winner could recover 50% of his serious wounded while the loser maybe 10% or none.
I'd say the winner could recover 80% of his lightly wounded while the loser could recover maybe 40%.
In a draw, both sides would recover half a winner's rate.

For example, a 1600 vs 1600 FP battle with a result of 45-25.

For the winner 25% = 400 fp lost.
20% dead - 80 FP
40% SW x50% -80 FP
40% LW x20% - 32 FP

Total lost 192 FP

For the loser 45% = 720 FP lost.
20% dead - 144 FP
40% SW x90% - 259 FP
40% LW x60% -172 FP

Total lost 575 FP

If you want to simplify it further you could just say the attack recovers somewhere between 60-80% of his losses and the defender somewhere between 20%-40% of his, whatever ratio you are comfortable with.

Another option would be to utilize the %losses on the final reporting screen in the game which accounts for the strategic pursuit/recovery following the battle.

In any case, the current proposal doesn't make sense to me at all.

Regards,

Karvon

[kronenblatt]

Thanks, Karvon, for input and thoughts. Those suggestions of yours are too complicated for my taste though. I'm merely after a FP reduction that game play wise could fit into the reinforcement system of the campaign, not reflect realistic losses after an ancient battle.

...

[kronenblatt]

I'm interested. Are Sicily or other islands in play? A quick glance didn't seem to show any reference to naval/sea movement.

Chris

No, at this stage and in this version for this (beta) campaign it's not included. Especially since armies to be included (Etruscans, Romans, Samnites, etc.) are very much land based. May include logistics lines along coasts though, but no navies.

However, in a campaign involving also Sicily and the other islands and thus Carthaginians and Syracusans it would be fun and necessary. I've been thinking about how to do the naval battles, and one idea that I came to think of could be á la Diplomacy, i.e., supporting attacks. And also having players allocate resources between armies and navies on a n ongoing basis, determining number of armies and navies available to a faction.

[TheGrayMouser]

I'm interested. Are Sicily or other islands in play? A quick glance didn't seem to show any reference to naval/sea movement.

Chris

No, at this stage and in this version for this (beta) campaign it's not included. Especially since armies to be included (Etruscans, Romans, Samnites, etc.) are very much land based. May include logistics lines along coasts though, but no navies.

However, in a campaign involving also Sicily and the other islands and thus Carthaginians and Syracusans it would be fun and necessary. I've been thinking about how to do the naval battles, and one idea that I came to think of could be á la Diplomacy, i.e., supporting attacks. And also having players allocate resources between armies and navies on a n ongoing basis, determining number of armies and navies available to a faction.

One of the old GMT strategy games ( Sword of Rome?) had simple yet effective naval rules with a hex based map. I do not have the rules nor recall the specifics but basically each player had x amount of naval points, one could allocate those points in various seas zones ( up to 3) and move them each turn (0 no presence, 1 small presence 3 great presence etc etc) If an enemy allocates points in the same zone you net the difference and if there is a battle to be fought or too influence actions in that sea zone, the net is used to influence the outcome. ( battle would be one or both player successfully forcing a naval engagement on a dice roll of some sort)

How many points you could allocate per zone would be based on how many harbours/ ports are in the sea zone controlled by your nation. A nation captures your ports with ground pounders, you'll have to move your naval points away or possibly lose them. Battles would be determine on a simple CRT chart. Other actions would to a dice roll to see if it succeeds, fails or horribly fails: for example, attempting to ferry troops across a zone or straight when your enemy has 3 point and you have 1 would be moderatley risky, but all or nothing ie 1-4 roll you succeed, 5-6 you lose your navy and all the soldiers being ferried ( something like that)

moving an army would use actual hexes to determine how fax it can be moved from controlled coast to another with the # of ports harbours in a sea zone ( and their sizes if you want to add detail) to determine how large an army can be moved and just as importantly, disembarked.

Simple rules are best because galley fleets could not remain on station like 19th century frigates. There can be fun to with random storms that wreck ones plans!

[kronenblatt]

I'm interested. Are Sicily or other islands in play? A quick glance didn't seem to show any reference to naval/sea movement.

Chris

No, at this stage and in this version for this (beta) campaign it's not included. Especially since armies to be included (Etruscans, Romans, Samnites, etc.) are very much land based. May include logistics lines along coasts though, but no navies.

However, in a campaign involving also Sicily and the other islands and thus Carthaginians and Syracusans it would be fun and necessary. I've been thinking about how to do the naval battles, and one idea that I came to think of could be á la Diplomacy, i.e., supporting attacks. And also having players allocate resources between armies and navies on a n ongoing basis, determining number of armies and navies available to a faction.

One of the old GMT strategy games ( Sword of Rome?) had simple yet effective naval rules with a hex based map. I do not have the rules nor recall the specifics but basically each player had x amount of naval points, one could allocate those points in various seas zones ( up to 3) and move them each turn (0 no presence, 1 small presence 3 great presence etc etc) If an enemy allocates points in the same zone you net the difference and if there is a battle to be fought or too influence actions in that sea zone, the net is used to influence the outcome. ( battle would be one or both player successfully forcing a naval engagement on a dice roll of some sort)

How many points you could allocate per zone would be based on how many harbours/ ports are in the sea zone controlled by your nation. A nation captures your ports with ground pounders, you'll have to move your naval points away or possibly lose them. Battles would be determine on a simple CRT chart. Other actions would to a dice roll to see if it succeeds, fails or horribly fails: for example, attempting to ferry troops across a zone or straight when your enemy has 3 point and you have 1 would be moderatley risky, but all or nothing ie 1-4 roll you succeed, 5-6 you lose your navy and all the soldiers being ferried ( something like that)

moving an army would use actual hexes to determine how fax it can be moved from controlled coast to another with the # of ports harbours in a sea zone ( and their sizes if you want to add detail) to determine how large an army can be moved and just as importantly, disembarked.

Simple rules are best because galley fleets could not remain on station like 19th century frigates. There can be fun to with random storms that wreck ones plans!

Sounds really interesting and something to develop: thanks! I made a quick search and it doesn't seem to be Sword of Rome (not hex-based map). Maybe someone else here could point us in the right direction?

• So basically coast, sea, and ocean hexes are bundled together into larger zones?

• And then hexes are used to moving an army from one port to another?

• But such movement would only be possible in a sea zone that your faction controls?

• Instead of dice, maybe some sort of rock-paper-scissors structure could be used?

• Or even more innovatively (?), the movement instructions that all players submit for their armies in the beginning of a round could be used in a pre-defined way to obtain "random" numbers? For example:
  • If the first movement instruction for all players is summed up (2+4+0+12+10+4+6+8 => 46), only the single digit is used (46 => 6) and voila: we got one "random" number with 5 outcomes between 0 and 8 (0,2,4,6,8)!
  • Then the second movement instruction for all players is used in the same way to obtain another random number, and so on.
  • In order to not run out of "random" numbers in a round, players' movement instructions could then be combined in various pre-defined ways (player 1's first, player 2's second, player 3's third, etc.).
  

[deeter]

If naval battles are in play, I can sort of recommend Mare Nostrum. It's only going for $5 USD, maybe less now. While not perfect, it gets the job done and the battles are quick. Everything is there including transports. Not much action on the server or I would play it more. Otherwise, I would abstract it heavily. Also, given the time per turn, a fleet could go anywhere in a turn. Another option would be the system used in the Matrix game Hannibal, a sweet game.

Deeter

[kronenblatt]

If naval battles are in play, I can sort of recommend Mare Nostrum. It's only going for $5 USD, maybe less now. While not perfect, it gets the job done and the battles are quick. Everything is there including transports. Not much action on the server or I would play it more. Otherwise, I would abstract it heavily. Also, given the time per turn, a fleet could go anywhere in a turn. Another option would be the system used in the Matrix game Hannibal, a sweet game.

Deeter

Thanks, deeter: yes, I'd like naval operations and battles abstracted as well. TGM found a game (Ancient Wars Series) whose naval rules could be interesting to draw inspiration from.

[deeter]

Yes Iread that, but not familiar with the game.

Deeter

[Karvon]

Thanks, Karvon, for input and thoughts. Those suggestions of yours are too complicated for my taste though. I'm merely after a FP reduction that game play wise could fit into the reinforcement system of the campaign, not reflect realistic losses after an ancient battle.

If there are no significant strategic consequences for slaughtering the enemy army, I'm not sure I see the point.

[kronenblatt]

Thanks, Karvon, for input and thoughts. Those suggestions of yours are too complicated for my taste though. I'm merely after a FP reduction that game play wise could fit into the reinforcement system of the campaign, not reflect realistic losses after an ancient battle.

If there are no significant strategic consequences for slaughtering the enemy army, I'm not sure I see the point.

What do you mean with "slaughtering"? Normal victory conditions apply, i.e., 40% and 25% difference, or 60%. Is that "slaughtering"? Victory in battle will result in achieving score and sending enemy back. Anyway, we'll see: like with everything else, I'll learn along the way.

[kronenblatt]

These are the tentative controlled towns and cities at start, depending on which factions we use:

Romans
Etruscans
Greeks
Samnites
Umbrians
Gauls

[kronenblatt]

So the first campaign of Vae Victis is on, with the following five teams:

• Etruscans: Aetius39 and Malabar26

• Gauls: Karvon and dim30

• Greeks: TomoeGozen and deeter

• Romans: olin0111 and kronenblatt

• Samnites: TheGrayMouser and kerait

Please download version 1.5.32 (TT Mod Multiplayer) of the TT Mod that we will be using when fighting the actual battles in Field of Glory II: Ancients. Download link and instructions in the TT mod thread. (It may make sense to download the single-player version of TT Mod too, to check armies easily and so on.)

Please also acquaint yourselves with the rules.

We're good to go with the setup above and with five factions. And we will do so in the next day or so. But if two reliable players want to join, forming a sixth team as Umbrians, now is the time. In that case, PM me ASAP.

[TomoeGozen]

I may have missed it but which cities are the capitals?

[kronenblatt]

I may have missed it but which cities are the capitals?

It's in the rules but no probs, here we go:

• Etruscan 330-280 BC, with capital at Arretium (EDIT: changed from Florentia to Arretium).

• Gallic Lowland Tribes 390-301 BC, with capitals at Mediolanum and Verona.

• Greek (Western) 380-281 BC, with capital at Neapolis.

• Roman 340-281 BC, with capital at Roma.

• Samnite 355-272 BC, with capital at Bovianum.

• Umbrian 490-260 BC, with capital at Hadria.

Please note though that the Etruscan capital may change, since Florentia was strictly not among the Dodecapolis (or "twelve cities"). On the other hand, there was really no single capital among the Etruscans so may work after all. But it is likely to be changed to Arretium. Will advise everyone.

EDIT: Capital of Etruscans is actually now changed to Arretium. Rules have been updated.

[TomoeGozen]

Sorry , I'm obviously going blind , senile or both... thanks

The Greek list doesn't have any allies in the TT mod , is that correct?

cheers,
Dave.