Thinking of New Campaign, Some Questions Though

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Duplex
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Thinking of New Campaign, Some Questions Though

Post by Duplex »

I'm looking to start on creating a new custom campaign, not sure if I'll have the commitment to finish it though. :lol: We'll see.

I do have some questions for others though.
How do you do your research for these scenarios? What do you consult to find troop deployments etc.?

What do you use for terrain maps and terrain creation?

The vast majority of Singleplayer 1vAI scenarios are cases where the player is the attacker, and if the player is defending, the player is often defending objectives very close to the front. Is it easy to make an AI scenario where the AI enemy has to conduct a deep offensive?

And, do people prefer a string of related individual scenarios, or an actual campaign that connects all of those scenarios?
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bru888
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Re: Thinking of New Campaign, Some Questions Though

Post by bru888 »

Wikipedia is the obvious first resort but don't stop there. Always investigate the "See also" and "References" links at the bottom of articles for more information.

Internet search is the next obvious tactic but I caution you to be careful following those links. Look for familiar web sites that you already trust or come to trust over time. Often, trust happens because you see the same web sites pop up in searches again and again.

There is a ton of information out there but sometimes you have to dig in order to find one with a worthy order of battle or terrain map. For example I could not find a good battle map of the Mareth Line by searching for images but I found a terrific one "hidden" in a page from https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/ whose address I kept seeing in searches. So, I went there:

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It's just a thumbnail on the page but when downloaded, the map is huge; 2600 x 3009 pixels. I had to "dumb it down" by 25% to show what it looks like here. Google Images never heard of it. Suffice to say that it made my scenario much better, and not just as a map but for the information it contains:

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So, lots of trial and error, but information is out there. It just takes time and effort to find it and mine it. I have occasionally bought or borrowed a book in conjunction with my projects but the vast majority of what I have used has come from the internet. Free! (Just watch for copyright claims on some images. And watch where you go. And have a good antivirus program up and running.)

As to your other questions, here are my opinions:

1) The more complicated the task, and the longer the path, the less likely the AI will do what you want it to do. Try to keep things as simple as possible and don't forget that smaller AI teams work better than overpopulated ones. Also, for more complicated maneuvers, the more choreography that you are willing to do; i.e., leading the AI by the nose step by step, the better results you will obtain.

2) Two examples of different campaign styles: Conboy's 3rd Infantry Division campaign, which follows the same outfit through WW2 and is thus naturally connected and flowing, and my Free French campaign which is all over the world. Different friendlies, different foes, different venues. But my theme is the same throughout: The story of Free France. I try to maintain this by using campaign popup messages to segue from one scenario to the next and tie it all together. So yes, it's better to have a series of closely connected scenarios but as long as the campaign has a common theme, I think it will work.
- Bru
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Re: Thinking of New Campaign, Some Questions Though

Post by bru888 »

One more piece of advice, or an observation, if you will. Free France 1940-1945 is my first campaign, although I worked with Erik on some joint projects. I can tell you that campaign designing is not for the faint-hearted. The campaign editor looks deceptively simple, and it really is, but the complications come in scenario branching, specialisation points, and campaign variables. The first two aspects become more complicated as campaigns get longer and as for campaign variables, well, I have only six so far and I need a SPREADSHEET to track them in order to plan for when they are needed and should be programmed in scenarios. No kidding:

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Plus, you could feel obligated to tell the whole story, only to discover how much that entails. I am currently at 19 scenarios, up from 18, and events beyond the liberation of Paris are beckoning to me.

So try campaigning if you feel like it - as far as I know, this will be your first, too - but don't feel disappointed if it gets to be a drudge. Sometimes I find myself looking back nostalgically at my own single scenario designing days . . .
- Bru
Duplex
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Re: Thinking of New Campaign, Some Questions Though

Post by Duplex »

Wow thanks for all the pointers Bru. That's a lot of info.

I will try my luck at getting the AI to conduct deep offensives, and if it proves to be too unfeasible...well I might just end up changing my scenarios to multiplayer (and thus it would also no longer be a campaign). I'm hesitant to do that though because as I see it the multiplayer scene on OOB is pretty small. So I'm really considering many options right now.

Btw, about the Free France campaign, since you're hopping around to different theaters and battlefields constantly, I assume that you're not providing a core force? Are all units auxiliary throughout your campaign?

Oh and I just thought of another question, how many units is too many units? I've pushed the limits of the OOB engine before, so I'm wondering at around what amount of units does OOB start to fail? And does it make a difference when the units are human controlled vs AI controlled? Some scenarios, like Erik's Multiplayer Market Garden scenario, have 100+ units. I'm asking because I'm wondering whether or not to place units based on a regiment or brigade scale. I want to use the smaller unit size, but I'm afraid there may be far too many units if I go by the regiment.
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Re: Thinking of New Campaign, Some Questions Though

Post by bru888 »

I say this carefully and respectfully, but say it, I will: Designing multi-player scenarios is by far the easiest designing project under the sun. Dealing with an ornery and sometimes dumb AI, and getting the scenario to balance as to gameplay - not too hard, not too easy, always interesting - is tough stuff. But you are already used to doing that and doing it well. The campaign umbrella may not be as burdensome to you as I moan and groan about above, because you have proven yourself capable of rising to the challenge with your single player scenarios. I would give it a go, and see.

In the dim archives of my Free French thread, I discussed why core units and specialisation points are not feasible for the human player who is playing as the Free French. Too few units and too few specialisations. Units cannot be upgraded as one would expect, and specialisation points are quickly earned and spent buying the handful of rudimentary specialisations that are available to this faction. So, yes, all units are auxiliary (and I have another table of basic experience to hand out to all units as the campaign progresses in time) and there are no specialisations for anybody.

No commanders, either. There haven't been any French commanders in OOB yet. (Perhaps ludicrously, I am using Dutch Admiral Karel Doorman as the fictional "L'Amiral Charles Portier," chief of staff for General de Gaulle, for briefings. :roll: )

I'll give you my guidelines. THESE ARE ONLY MY OPINIONS.

1) The best maps are no smaller than 40 hexes and no bigger than 60 hexes to a side. There can be exceptions, of course; my upcoming Operation Vesuvius map will be 30 X 60 because, well, the island of Corsica is shaped that way and those measurements fit the map template nicely. But no bigger than 60 hexes on any side, ever. Here is why: Think of how many turns it takes for a unit to move the length of a map from one end to the other. If the map of Corsica is 120 hexes long, and the average movement is 3 turns per hex, that means it would take 40 turns just to advance the unit from top to bottom. Now throw in some battles, and realize how many turns we are talking about. If the map's only 60 hexes long, the journey only takes 20 turns. 45 hexes, 15 turns.

2) I am also trying to keep my scenarios to 60 turns or less, and anything above 50 to be rare. It's like why most movies are only about 2 hours long; attention span can be exhausted thereafter.

3) The bigger the map, the more turns, but also the more units. That's another consideration involving attention span. If you have 100+ enemy units on your map, you need to have a similar number of friendly units to fight them. Moving 80, 90, 100 units each turn gets to be a chore, unfortunately. Also consider the AI "thinking" time, sorting out the moves for 100+ units.

4) So, to give you an example, when I sat down today to lay out the Axis order of battle for Mareth Line, I was following my sources for the eight divisions involved. I was proceeding on a battalion level and when I was done with the third division, I projected and was flabbergasted to see that I would be up north of 140 units. So I went back and culled it back on a regiment level and was pleased to see eight Axis divisions come to a bulky, but manageable, total of 75 units.* Mareth Line really was a big battle over a wide area.

5) In most scenarios, though, I like to keep the number of units to 50 or under per side depending on the situation.* Here is the key: Think in terms of what you are portraying, the size and breadth of it, and how big the map is; i.e., how much territory needs to be covered by the units involved. For example, I had to cut off any more units added to Medenine, despite Colonel Y's urgings, because the battle occurs only in a small corner of the map I was using (I used the same map for the much larger Mareth Line). In one scenario, there wasn't enough room. In another one, that same number of units would look sparse and scattered.

6) Only when you have considered all of the above should you decide whether to base your units on platoons, companies, battalions, regiments, brigades, or divisions. It's the number of units that matters; what unit size they represent is quite flexible in OOB.

And all this being said, you are still going to need feedback, your own and from other helpful souls, in order to fine-tune things because this is not an exact science by any means.
- Bru
bru888
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Re: Thinking of New Campaign, Some Questions Though

Post by bru888 »

*Clarified above. I meant, per side.
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Duplex
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Re: Thinking of New Campaign, Some Questions Though

Post by Duplex »

Thanks for all the advice. I guess I'm sticking to making a campaign then. :lol:

Time to get working!
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bru888
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Re: Thinking of New Campaign, Some Questions Though

Post by bru888 »

*75 on one side is still too much. I subsequently cut the Mareth Line OOB down even further.
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Re: Thinking of New Campaign, Some Questions Though

Post by bru888 »

Duplex wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:52 am Thanks for all the advice. I guess I'm sticking to making a campaign then. :lol:

Time to get working!
That's the spirit. Good luck.
- Bru
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Re: Thinking of New Campaign, Some Questions Though

Post by conboy »

I lucked in to the 3d Division. I wanted to find out more about Anzio, so I made a scenario, and then when I wanted to make a campaign, I picked the dominant unit in that history. Lucky me, it was the most interesting story (to me) of all US Divisions.
Then, I gave Salerno short shrift in the campaign, so I made up for it by doing a mini campaign. It had everything as a reward -- airborne stuff, Naval stuff (which I neglected), armored rescue, near-death experience by the allies, special operations troops. I could go back and do that one justice.
So that's how I decided on my campaigns.
I am now working on another totally different campaign that of a battle that I found very interesting.
So, as far as making a recommendation as to how to pick a campaign, I can only say pick what interests you and that you are passionate about from a historical research perspective.
As a US American chauvinist, I am lucky because the Center for Military History (CMH) has detailed corps-level descriptions of every action the US took in the war. So I always read up on what I am interested in there, then order a more detailed book on line to get unit-level perspectives. I was lucky with 3d division because there was a free (too detailed) book of all their actions from University of Michigan, plus CMH had a ton of information on their main engagements. I had to order a book on the Colmar pocket to get enough info to put that one together.
Erik and I use the University of Texas map library extensively.
I also use the onh-line Michelin maps for terrain features.
I didn't have to order any book on Salerno because there are tons of articles and free books on it -- the CMH has enough information on US involvement but Brit stuff required considerable digging. I think one of Erik's hints put me on checking out several Brit brigades and regiments that were involved.
Oddly, the modeling and miniature community has a lot of interesting information -- check this out -- https://wargamerabbit.wordpress.com/

I am currently looking for a German source equivalent to the US Center for Military History but am having no luck.

Regarding the AI as attacker and the Human as defender -- it is very very hard (as Bru points out) to get a historically accurate AI force to pose much of a threat to a human player. You always have to exaggerate the OoB, use more artillery than is historical, and have at least two levels of aggressiveness in the AI teams: One to replicate the historical movements, another to challenge the Human. I think I have put together some interesting defensive scenarios for the human, but on close inspection, the attacking AI forces are waayyy outsized compared to the historical sources.

So, I guess, pick something you are very interested in, and use bona-fide historical resources, and don't pay too much attention to the historical balance of forces when the AI is the attacker.

Let's see some good ones, Duplex! I mean, you been at this longer than me -- I should be asking you questions, amigo!

conboy
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