Quick Refrence sheet problems

[irondog068]

Adding the line is all I am asking.
I could add it but then again we have the "2 say this and 1 says this. And all you did is draw a line across". Maybe the 10 to 15 guys we are playing FOG are not as quick as the playtesters. That may be. But in the world of spreadsheets it is wrong. I am not trying to piss in anyones cornflakes just pointing something out.

I look foward to the new QRS with the lines across to make it simpler for us who read spreadsheets as spreadsheets.

Irondog

[stenic]

Hey lets stand back a bit ...

James, a tweak might help cut out such an unusual interpretation.

Irondog a good few 000 people have used the QRS now without any such issues, so to say it is wrong is bit extreme don't you think?

What you are saying is you read it way FFF, which is not a way the team has seen anyone else read it yet.

It went to over 100 people in testing, even before publication, and we got variants of AAA to EEEE and fixed those, but nobody read it the way you have. It's a new variant that's all, so be it.

Now you know to take each line across anyway it is easily fixed by you anyway; and James adding lines back in would remove any such risks in future.

Isn't that it, or am I missing something?
Si

To be honest one in our group read it like that at one point, so it's not a new thought. The player in question was the one without the rules but just the playsheet when we were first starting out. I suggest the problem may be that once a QRS is published players will gloss over tables in the rules assuming that the QRS has them. They'll know the rules but then look the the QRS and read it not as intended perhaps.

Steve P

[shall]

To be honest one in our group read it like that at one point, so it's not a new thought. The player in question was the one without the rules but just the playsheet when we were first starting out. I suggest the problem may be that once a QRS is published players will gloss over tables in the rules assuming that the QRS has them. They'll know the rules but then look the the QRS and read it not as intended perhaps.

You may well be right. If people try to play the game off the QRS without the rules it will be a problem, and always should be.

The QRS is specifically designed so that is not a full rules summary, but a complement to owning and using the rulebook, and should always be so IMO.

Si

[DaiSho]

To be honest one in our group read it like that at one point, so it's not a new thought. The player in question was the one without the rules but just the playsheet when we were first starting out. I suggest the problem may be that once a QRS is published players will gloss over tables in the rules assuming that the QRS has them. They'll know the rules but then look the the QRS and read it not as intended perhaps.

You may well be right. If people try to play the game off the QRS without the rules it will be a problem, and always should be.

The QRS is specifically designed so that is not a full rules summary, but a complement to owning and using the rulebook, and should always be so IMO.

Si

You know, I've only been following this thread vaguely, but I have to say that the last game I played I made a comment to my opponent. When packing up, I grabbed my rule book and shoved it in my carry case and said to him "you know, I didn't look at the rules once... this is such a good system".

Really, it is. Once you've got the basics down you don't need anything but a jog, which is what the 'quick reference sheet' does. It is like a golf player. Once they know how to play, they might sometimes need to reference the rules so should always have a copy in their bag, but if a novice expects to play according to the rules by reading the quick blurb on the back of the score card, then they are going to come unstuck.

Ian

[marioslaz]

To be honest one in our group read it like that at one point, so it's not a new thought. The player in question was the one without the rules but just the playsheet when we were first starting out. I suggest the problem may be that once a QRS is published players will gloss over tables in the rules assuming that the QRS has them. They'll know the rules but then look the the QRS and read it not as intended perhaps.

Sorry, but I don't see the problem. Rules are pretty clear, in general, and when there is some points misleading you can ask in the forum. At least, we made so any time we had a doubt. This should end any discussion about different interpretation within your group. If you find not good for your taste the QRS, well make one by yourself! If you have a PC and an internet connection, and you have it if you wrote on this forum, you can download an open source spreadsheet software, or even a word processor, and make your QRS without spending even a penny. When we started FOG many friend of mine have some problem with English, so I should translate not only QRS, but also main rules, and this needed only few hours of work. If you need just to re-arrange at your taste QRS in just few minutes you can do it.

[shall]

You know, I've only been following this thread vaguely, but I have to say that the last game I played I made a comment to my opponent. When packing up, I grabbed my rule book and shoved it in my carry case and said to him "you know, I didn't look at the rules once... this is such a good system".

Really, it is. Once you've got the basics down you don't need anything but a jog, which is what the 'quick reference sheet' does. It is like a golf player. Once they know how to play, they might sometimes need to reference the rules so should always have a copy in their bag, but if a novice expects to play according to the rules by reading the quick blurb on the back of the score card, then they are going to come unstuck.

Ian

Which is exactly the objective - use the book to learn; use the QRS as the rmeinder thereafter. I probably refer to the book twice per game, and the QRS maybe 10 times.

"you know, I didn't look at the rules once... this is such a good system". .... is exactly how it was designed to be - lots of simple natural things interconnected. Glad you feel that way. )

Si

[david53]

Hey lets stand back a bit ...

James, a tweak might help cut out such an unusual interpretation.

Irondog a good few 000 people have used the QRS now without any such issues, so to say it is wrong is bit extreme don't you think?

What you are saying is you read it way FFF, which is not a way the team has seen anyone else read it yet.

It went to over 100 people in testing, even before publication, and we got variants of AAA to EEEE and fixed those, but nobody read it the way you have. It's a new variant that's all, so be it.

Now you know to take each line across anyway it is easily fixed by you anyway; and James adding lines back in would remove any such risks in future.

Isn't that it, or am I missing something?

Enjoy the FOG.

Si

Am i missing something here I use the QRS most of the time, only looking at the main rules when required in my games. I've managed to work out the POA quite quickly and all the games I have had I have'nt had anyone complain about the QRS. Maybe theres a silent majority that might not want any adjustments were none are required.

[CrazyHarborc]

We/my group and I try to mark the QRS with key words to remind us of the "complete/correct wording" in the rulebook.......When the difference causes a problem.

[spud]

Adding the line is all I am asking.
I could add it but then again we have the "2 say this and 1 says this. And all you did is draw a line across". Maybe the 10 to 15 guys we are playing FOG are not as quick as the playtesters. That may be. But in the world of spreadsheets it is wrong. I am not trying to piss in anyones cornflakes just pointing something out.

I look foward to the new QRS with the lines across to make it simpler for us who read spreadsheets as spreadsheets.

Irondog

I read it as a spread sheet also, so I did exactly what you did in reading it, reason it was screwing me up in understanding the rules. I did mark the page on 96-97. Going to be running my first game of it soon enough, possible this week. Understanding they are line items clears things up for me.

The issue I can see is that in the QRS, most areas are organized as a spreadsheet, such as "Only in open terrain" while the "+" in the Impact section is not treated as such.

Can the charts on this be made into pdf files so I can print them in any size rather then the jpg ones? thanks

[irondog068]

You guys are all acting like I am asking you to change the rules. Everyone we play with has the rules and I would rather trash a simple "blessed" corrrect QRS sheet than my book. As it stands my rule book and at least one of my army list books have had beer and water spilled on them. I don't plan on replacing them untill they fall apart.

I am just wondering if the QRS could look like the one in the middle of the book. I don't plan on putting a bunch of little tabs in my rule book so that I can find the right chart. I think that would scare off any newbie as he looked at a rule book that the guy running the demo has to look at all the time and go to tabbed charts. He would probably say to himself " Self, Holy crap! this guys knows the rules and he has to keep going to them in a book he had to tab? How am I gonna learn it"?

I just want it right so I can show people. I really don't have the time to copy and past parts of the book to get the right chart.

[Polkovnik]

Surely now you know how to read the POA table in the QRS you can use it as it is without any changes ? No-one I've played with has had any problems using the POA tables in the QRS.

[philqw78]

Are we talking about the QRS in the back of the book or the downloadable one from the FoG site?

[irondog068]

The one in the back if the book and the one you can down load. As you read a spreadsheet if you read them as a spreadsheet they are wrong (That is why I shoed my Pregnant bride, she was in banking and read spread sheets all the time. Plus she was the only one over the age 11 in the house). Just change the free download to make it like the one in the center of the book and life would be grand.

I am not asking for the things I would change (Swiss elite option, + for shooting into pike blocks, Samurai for 1575). Those are thigs I can change as "House Rules" The problem is we got guys here who are starting out and some who play tournements.

[spud]

The one in the back if the book and the one you can down load. As you read a spreadsheet if you read them as a spreadsheet they are wrong (That is why I shoed my Pregnant bride, she was in banking and read spread sheets all the time. Plus she was the only one over the age 11 in the house). Just change the free download to make it like the one in the center of the book and life would be grand.

I am not asking for the things I would change (Swiss elite option, + for shooting into pike blocks, Samurai for 1575). Those are thigs I can change as "House Rules" The problem is we got guys here who are starting out and some who play tournements.

You know let me go and create the one from the middle of the book and pdf them when I get back home. In fact I will go and do the other chart he created on this forums also. hope it will be of some use to others besides myself. =) would have rather someone else do them but I will go and do it. =p

How do you want them layed out? 8 1/2 x 11 or 11 x 8 1/2.
any preferences to font size and the like? So far what I will do is the charts from page 94 to 97.

-steven

[stenic]

The one in the back if the book and the one you can down load. As you read a spreadsheet if you read them as a spreadsheet they are wrong (That is why I shoed my Pregnant bride, she was in banking and read spread sheets all the time. Plus she was the only one over the age 11 in the house).

So you asked a pregnant woman and one who's in finance too? Just how many mistakes can you make?

Should have gone with the 11yr old

Steve P

[lawrenceg]

IT appears the chart still has the + for mounted light spear and the + for heavy chariots as "any one of" when in fact they can be used together.

I suspect the "any one of" is redundant in both impact and melee tables because the capabilities are all mutually exclusive. Or do some heavy chariots have lance or heavy weapon?

Any chance of tidying up these issues as well as putting the extra lines in?

I think it would be worth looking at re-ordering the columns so the + is on the far right. Then there would be no need for the extra lines.

[pyruse]

Irondog wrote:
As you read a spreadsheet if you read them as a spreadsheet they are wrong
-------------------
Since the QRS is clearly not a spreadsheet, or even anything much like one, I'm puzzled as to why you'd read it like one?
It's a table - the rows are even shaded to show which thing on the left goes with which on the right.
Describing it as 'wrong' is just perverse; it may be confusing to you, but it's not wrong.

If you don't like the formatting, why don't you just draw lines across your copy?
Seems like a big fuss about nothing

[hammy]

IT appears the chart still has the + for mounted light spear and the + for heavy chariots as "any one of" when in fact they can be used together.

I suspect the "any one of" is redundant in both impact and melee tables because the capabilities are all mutually exclusive. Or do some heavy chariots have lance or heavy weapon?

Any chance of tidying up these issues as well as putting the extra lines in?

I think it would be worth looking at re-ordering the columns so the + is on the far right. Then there would be no need for the extra lines.

The chart has not been updated since the heavy chariot and light spear problem was noticed.

I think yoy are right though regarding the any one of.

[shall]

It is 1 out of place as you can have HCH Lt Sp.

Si

[nickj]

Irondog wrote:
As you read a spreadsheet if you read them as a spreadsheet they are wrong
-------------------
Since the QRS is clearly not a spreadsheet, or even anything much like one, I'm puzzled as to why you'd read it like one?
It's a table - the rows are even shaded to show which thing on the left goes with which on the right.
Describing it as 'wrong' is just perverse; it may be confusing to you, but it's not wrong.

If you don't like the formatting, why don't you just draw lines across your copy?
Seems like a big fuss about nothing

I am a new player. My professional specialty is graphical user interface design. The chart is wrong. It is wrong because it applies spacing with two different meanings. In the first case ("in open terrain") it uses multi-line spacing to imply that all items to the left must also be in open terrain. That is, it groups. Then the "+" is used when it actually means "please treat this as if it appeared on all lines". It is an understandable but very rookie mistake. Saying that, "it is not a spreadsheet," is also a rookie mistake. We learn how to deal with new layout information from previous layout information. That is, I can play a first person shooter _because_ I played Wolfenstein back in the day and understand "WASD". A table layout is based on spreadsheets which are in turn based on tabular accounting formats that go back a good two centuries.

I'm __thrilled__ that the rules have improved the presentation quality of the whole _genre_. However, mistakes were made. The wording is still not super sharp and reads like (hold your shock) a wargamer wrote it. It is not Barkerese, but it is still clunky in spots.

Saying that the QRS is not the rule is a cop out. The rules themselves have errors that QRS seems to correct. For example the section on re-rolls (which doesn't seem to be noted in the errata).

Heck the errata is difficult to find. To this day I have never been able to navigate there from the mainpage, I used Google to find it on the site. There is no site map. No "downloads". No "support". I say this not to be a jerk, I love the game, it is now "my" ancients game, there is just still room for improvement.