Most Realistic Exp. Mod Battlefield Europe v2.0 (replay)

[faos333]

Discussion of defense West 44-45

After all previous suggestions:

It seems that we need to defend a bit with delaying actions from Normandy to France,launch the rockets etc instead on just defending on Rhine river; I need to seriously to re think choices.
But before I need to share with you my initial defend plan I was preparing before the pause.

Reasoning for setting defense Rhine, there are not enough units in the west. Let alone to defend Normandy.

bev2-west-defense-1.JPG (213.68 KiB) Viewed 1513 times

Situation in the east: We are on turn 68. Moscow is under pressure so no units. Voronezh is quite but do not know what else they are bringing on. Stalingrad we need to take the city. Then planning to return all remaining PzIII/J to upgrade to Panthers and stay on west.

Most of Baku units disengage now and can be sending to west by rail. But transports from the east take time, let alone to upgrade or re deploy under enemy air attacks. That is why I thought to defend on Rhine.


Alternative plan of defense after your suggestions:
Set up an urgent Kampfgruppe “west” consisting the Tiger, a Panther, a Stug, protected by artillery, the 3 infantry based in France now and mobile flaks, I think have four of them in the east. This group can try to act as a delaying force mainly in Paris area.

Mean while we try to build defenses and follow the original plan which is called “Wacht am Rein”, since it contains a possible counter attack during winter 45.
This means no defense south of France landings, Dijon and Lyon will fall, we stay on Strasbourg on mountain - forest terrain and defend from there.

bev2-west-defense-1-alternative.JPG (216.3 KiB) Viewed 1498 times

!

The Rockets plan
There could another plan as well concentrating around Rockets launches and earning prestige.
This would involve a Paris, Dijon defense. Do not know if this realistic in time, bring units etc

bev2-west-defense-1-rockets-plan.JPG (213.18 KiB) Viewed 1489 times

[faos333]

Atlantic plans for D-Day onwards

Also, plans for U-Boats operations after D-Day, please also comment if and what extend is feasible.

bev2-west-defense-2-uboats.JPG (147.27 KiB) Viewed 1509 times

[faos333]

Also, please comment on alternative defense N Italy.

I can bring enough air force to bomb the ships away
In case line breaks follow to the new line north west

bev2-west-defense-3-italy.JPG (199.16 KiB) Viewed 1506 times

[Uhu]

Italy: I'm not sure. The Allied airforce from the south will not let the bombings of their ships to happen so easy... If you defend the Fiume line you can avoid most of the ships and you do not need armor in the hills, which can be used elsewhere. Also when opration Anwill comes into motion, your actual defense line will be no more defendable.

I would use the uboats at Biscaya bay to hide and attack troop transports, if they move to the southwestern aproaches of the peninsula. OK, no garanty that it will succeed. I did this, when I had also some capital ships left, which could neutralise the destroyers. But no other, better options do I see for them.

[faos333]

Italy: I'm not sure. The Allied airforce from the south will not let the bombings of their ships to happen so easy... If you defend the Fiume line you can avoid most of the ships and you do not need armor in the hills, which can be used elsewhere. Also when opration Anwill comes into motion, your actual defense line will be no more defendable.

I would use the uboats at Biscaya bay to hide and attack troop transports, if they move to the southwestern aproaches of the peninsula. OK, no garanty that it will succeed. I did this, when I had also some capital ships left, which could neutralise the destroyers. But no other, better options do I see for them.

* To bomb them I was thinking during a non flying day to come over them with fighters escort and then bomb and leave, so they can be reduced, if they are less than 5 shooting is not a threat.
* Operation Anwill?? This is ...? what?
* How about the three U-boats in the sea north of France, do they have any chances?
If I solve the oil crisis all my navy is in the north, they may escort them, is it feasible, are they any allied transports over there?

[PeteMitchell]

Consider to put mines west of Paris and along the Seine river...

Try to delay the breakout of US troops out of Normandy as long as possible: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cobra

[PeteMitchell]

Italy: I'm not sure. The Allied airforce from the south will not let the bombings of their ships to happen so easy... If you defend the Fiume line you can avoid most of the ships and you do not need armor in the hills, which can be used elsewhere. Also when opration Anwill comes into motion, your actual defense line will be no more defendable.

I would use the uboats at Biscaya bay to hide and attack troop transports, if they move to the southwestern aproaches of the peninsula. OK, no garanty that it will succeed. I did this, when I had also some capital ships left, which could neutralise the destroyers. But no other, better options do I see for them.

* To bomb them I was thinking during a non flying day to come over them with fighters escort and then bomb and leave, so they can be reduced, if they are less than 5 shooting is not a threat.
* Operation Anwill?? This is ...? what?
* How the three U_boats north of France, do they have any chances? If I solve the oil crisis all my navy is in the north, they may escort them, is it feasible, are they any allied transports over there?

Landing in Southern France:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Dragoon

[faos333]

Thanks for the info, xm this needs history reading also!

So from the plans above above any more comments? How about the alternative or rockets plan?

[PeteMitchell]

Your plans are fine (including the rockets plan, you will do all of your plans as the US will keep pushing you east towards the Rhine)...

What I said earlier, you need to delay the advance from Normandy and Southern France to the river Rhine as much and as long as possible... it's from turn 72 to turn 99... count the hexes from Normandy beaches to the Rhine... so you know what to achieve per turn...

Same with Southern France up the Rhone valley... I agree with Uhu regarding Northern Italy, Gustav line is hard to defend due to naval gunfire and bombing...

Try to delay the Allies as much as possible every turn and try to keep them as long as possible west of Paris. The u-boats can help but they won't survive very long plus the US invasion / D-Day landings will be massive.

As a real alternative... try to capture a UK victory objectives... this will pause / hold D-Day...

Here is all my advice and all my ideas:

viewtopic.php?f=145&t=87739

[faos333]

...... count the hexes from Normandy beaches to the Rhine... so you know what to achieve per turn...
As a real alternative... try to capture a UK victory objectives... this will pause / hold D-Day...

* Count the hexes from Normandy beaches to the Rhine, awesome advice
* Assuming we had the forces and time, which UK vic objective is easier to take?
* Race on Berlin I will read then, by now we need some info to avoid defeat

[PeteMitchell]

...... count the hexes from Normandy beaches to the Rhine... so you know what to achieve per turn...
As a real alternative... try to capture a UK victory objectives... this will pause / hold D-Day...

* Count the hexes from Normandy beaches to the Rhine, awesome advice
* Assuming we had the forces and time, which UK vic objective is easier to take?
* Race on Berlin I will read then, by now we need some info to avoid defeat

Uhu showed how to capture Plymouth but it's too late by now I think, same with going into Scotland...

The Race to Berlin AAR is all about the D-Day defense by the way... I had used the save game by McGuba to get a draw...

[faos333]

...... count the hexes from Normandy beaches to the Rhine... so you know what to achieve per turn...
As a real alternative... try to capture a UK victory objectives... this will pause / hold D-Day...

* Count the hexes from Normandy beaches to the Rhine, awesome advice
* Assuming we had the forces and time, which UK vic objective is easier to take?
* Race on Berlin I will read then, by now we need some info to avoid defeat

Uhu showed how to capture Plymouth but it's too late by now I think, same with going into Scotland...

The Race to Berlin AAR is all about the D-Day defense by the way... I had used the save game by McGuba to get a draw...

* The Race to Berlin AAR I think is a must ready by now
* Plymouth or Scotland for the replay
* How about N. Afrika - Middle East attack plan, should I send west units to take back Al Gheila, or even advance to retake Tripoli?
Is there enough time to reach the Baghdad oil fields?

[PeteMitchell]

North Africa... well, IMHO I am not sure why Germany ever went there... so not sure about what makes sense to do there still... I think you will need everything you have in Europe...

[faos333]

North Africa... well, IMHO I am not sure why Germany ever went there...

The irony is that Libya was full of Oil reserves.
If these have been exploited by Italians before the war, the whole WW2 history as we know it, would have been altered for good!
The oil has been partly discovered. If the huge oil fields there were put in action, Axis would have more than enough to cover the needs of war economy.
No oil crisis, no Caucasus rash, more oil for ships, more petrol for the air force... etc
Thankfully it didn't.

This is a theme not discussed enough till now. Maybe TIK in the future can help to highlight this irony..
Axis went to war for Oil too, but the were sitting on tons of it, in Libya !!!

Since you like historical facts read this one:
Why didn't Italy find Oil in Libya while it was an Italian colony.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/ ... it_was_an/

"An Italian geological expedition led by the explorer and geologist Ardito Desio did discover oil in the late 1930s. Despite these discoveries, there was next to no exploitation of Libya's petroleum deposits while Italy controlled the region. This was not due to lack of foresight on the part of the Italians..."

Also on this matter:
Oil reserves in Libya are the largest in Africa and among the ten largest globally..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves_in_Libya

[faos333]

In the mean time as we discuss plans, what is your opinion on this issue?

bev2-turn-68-elephant.JPG (190.4 KiB) Viewed 1446 times

[PeteMitchell]

In the mean time as we discuss plans, what is your opinion on this issue?
bev2-turn-68-elephant.JPG

I have no idea, this is a topic for McGuba. Seems a bit expensive...

[PeteMitchell]

North Africa... well, IMHO I am not sure why Germany ever went there...

The irony is that Libya was full of Oil reserves.
If these have been exploited by Italians before the war, the whole WW2 history as we know it, would have been altered for good!
The oil has been partly discovered. If the huge oil fields there were put in action, Axis would have more than enough to cover the needs of war economy.
No oil crisis, no Caucasus rash, more oil for ships, more petrol for the air force... etc
Thankfully it didn't.

This is a theme not discussed enough till now. Maybe TIK in the future can help to highlight this irony..
Axis went to war for Oil too, but the were sitting on tons of it, in Libya !!!

Since you like historical facts read this one:
Why didn't Italy find Oil in Libya while it was an Italian colony.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/ ... it_was_an/

"An Italian geological expedition led by the explorer and geologist Ardito Desio did discover oil in the late 1930s. Despite these discoveries, there was next to no exploitation of Libya's petroleum deposits while Italy controlled the region. This was not due to lack of foresight on the part of the Italians..."

Also on this matter:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves_in_Libya

I am not sure this had solved it... you still need to transport it across the Mediterranean Sea dominated by the UK https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Fleet

[faos333]

North Africa... well, IMHO I am not sure why Germany ever went there...

The irony is that Libya was full of Oil reserves.
If these have been exploited by Italians before the war, the whole WW2 history as we know it, would have been altered for good!
The oil has been partly discovered. If the huge oil fields there were put in action, Axis would have more than enough to cover the needs of war economy.
No oil crisis, no Caucasus rash, more oil for ships, more petrol for the air force... etc
Thankfully it didn't.

This is a theme not discussed enough till now. Maybe TIK in the future can help to highlight this irony..
Axis went to war for Oil too, but the were sitting on tons of it, in Libya !!!

Since you like historical facts read this one:
Why didn't Italy find Oil in Libya while it was an Italian colony.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/ ... it_was_an/

"An Italian geological expedition led by the explorer and geologist Ardito Desio did discover oil in the late 1930s. Despite these discoveries, there was next to no exploitation of Libya's petroleum deposits while Italy controlled the region. This was not due to lack of foresight on the part of the Italians..."

Also on this matter:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves_in_Libya

I am not sure this had solved it... you still need to transport it across the Mediterranean Sea dominated by the UK https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Fleet

More Oil more operating ships for the Italian navy instead of sitting on the docks.
Perhaps an air borne operation to take Malta, instead of Crete attack (spearing the Greeks from of total occupation by axis also )
Operation Hercules:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Herkules

[PeteMitchell]

Yes, maybe... it takes years to build ships...

[faos333]

Yes, maybe... it takes years to build ships...

They had enough already for the attack, not as many as British, but enough to attempt, also there could be an easy local air superiority to bomb them in 1941.

Anyway its fun to play with DAK forces, especially Shahariana is an excellent recon - attack unit