Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.4

[PeteMitchell]

Can you at least somehow not fight with the USSR ? If you do not attack the Soviet Union , but send your army to England and Africa, what will the AI do ( will the Red Army itself attack me !?

Yes, as of turn 1, the AI will move its SU troops towards the next / closest victory objectives in Europe...

I have never tried this extreme form but I am sure you would need some defensive line towards the SU (e.g. along the line of turn 1 or anywhere further east or west of it).

Europe_before_Operation_Barbarossa,_1941_(in_German).png (141.85 KiB) Viewed 2518 times

[faos333]

As far as I know no one really became a u-boat ace after 1943. The odds were against them so badly they had not much chance to shine. After May 1943 the hunters became the hunted and the successful early war aces who survived were all promoted to commanding or desk jobs in 42-43 the latest. The new captains were inexperienced and were killed before they could had become aces. The Allies invested very heavily in anti-submaine warfare.

You are right about not many aces that after 43.

How about an early U-Boat hero in 41, or 42?
Eg Erich Topp, see this list with their bios.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... rld_War_II

It would be lots of fun to have a different U-Boat in the game. Players will be referring to him.
For example I really like Rudel and Lent to be in the game, even with less powerfull characteristis than GC.
During play I look for them by name instead of a generic number.

[PeteMitchell]

I would only be able to name Kretschmer... but he was captured before Operation Barbarossa.

[faos333]

I would only be able to name Kretschmer...

Have a look on the link above they were many.

Kretschmer sunk 47 ships

For example Adolf Piening sunk 25. Took command of U-155 in June 1941, and sank 25 ships for a total of 126,664 GRT in 8 patrols. From March 1944 Piening was the commander of the 7th U-boat Flotilla. Piening's last patrol was in April 1945, laying mines off Saint-Nazaire in U-255. After the war Piening spent more than two years in Allied captivity. In 1956 he rejoined the Bundesmarine, serving for 13 years.[20]

[McGuba]

How about an early U-Boat hero in 41, or 42?
Eg Erich Topp, see this list with their bios.

Erich Topp is already in BE v2.0. He is on the map in turn 1. And we also have Heinrich Lehmann-Willenbrock (the captain of the book and film 'Das Boot' was based on him) and Engelbert Endrass. In turn 10 we get Friedriech von Forstner and in turn 30 Werner Henke.

For example Adolf Piening sunk 25. Took command of U-155 in June 1941, and sank 25 ships for a total of 126,664 GRT in 8 patrols.

Yes, maybe I will add him as well. He could arrive in turn 20. Altough he was mainly active in the South Atlantic and US waters which are out of the map.

[faos333]

How about an early U-Boat hero in 41, or 42?
Eg Erich Topp, see this list with their bios.

Erich Topp is already in BE v2.0. He is on the map in turn 1. And we also have Heinrich Lehmann-Willenbrock (the captain of the book and film 'Das Boot' was based on him) and Engelbert Endrass. In turn 10 we get Friedriech von Forstner and in turn 30 Werner Henke.

For example Adolf Piening sunk 25. Took command of U-155 in June 1941, and sank 25 ships for a total of 126,664 GRT in 8 patrols.

Yes, maybe I will add him as well. He could arrive in turn 20. Altough he was mainly active in the South Atlantic and US waters which are out of the map.

Wow that is really nice

[Yrfin]

Hi McGuba !

Im trying understend a mechanics armor/penetretion.
I even start a Topic for this.
viewtopic.php?f=147&t=103259
I want correct a vanilla equipments thing with which I disagreed.

Then I deside to look your equipment file a little close, coz you are PzC Expert.

And I have a few questions.

1. Whats happening with vanilla equpments ?
- All Good Guys got a new Gun/Armor/Close Defense, but T-34 only got +1 GD

BF HA-GD.jpg (96.91 KiB) Viewed 2372 times

- T-70 can replace T-34 at battlefield mostly ?

- Now Full Armored Marder IIIM&Hetzer are looking a much better than Pz IVF2?

Marder IIIM armor.jpg (42.27 KiB) Viewed 2373 times

Seriouz
Can you explain a little more your changes in Stats (SA/HA/GD/CD) your equipment file (for this units on pic) ?

2. Cant find in your e-file a good german AT gun F-22 Pak36 (r)(captured&redisged) - towed 560 pcs (until spring 43), 894 pcs for Marders was made.

F-22 Pak 36 (r)- 560 pcs.jpg (70.71 KiB) Viewed 2373 times

Tnx.

[uzbek2012]

https://topwar.ru/146573-rasskazy-ob-or ... -mifa.html

http://artofwar.ru/w/woroshenx_a_p/text_0830.shtml

http://alternathistory.com/mihail-sviri ... o-gadyuki/

[uzbek2012]

https://topwar.ru/146573-rasskazy-ob-or ... -mifa.html

http://artofwar.ru/w/woroshenx_a_p/text_0830.shtml

http://alternathistory.com/mihail-sviri ... o-gadyuki/

[McGuba]

1. Whats happening with vanilla equpments ?
- All Good Guys got a new Gun/Armor/Close Defense, but T-34 only got +1 GD

When calculating the unit stats I do not only look at armour thickness and gun penetration, but also at other things like having a radio or not, having a three men turret or only two, crew comfort, visibility, optics, reliability, quality of gun, shells and armour, doctrine, etc. etc. In my opinion a tank is a complex weapon system and is not characterised only by its armour strength and main gun.

Maybe you can also check this:

Code: Select all

http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com/2012/07/wwii-myths-t-34-best-tank-of-war.html

and this:

Code: Select all

https://www.operationbarbarossa.net/the-t-34-in-wwii-the-legend-vs-the-performance/

Of course there can be endless debates whether the T-34 was the best tank of WW2 or just a piece of crap, but I think it depends on the year. In 1941 (and to some extent in much of 1942) it was certainly one of the best, if not the best tank in the world, but after the Germans upgunned the Panzer IV to the long 75 mm gun it lost its superiority, which it managed to more or less regain when it got the 85 mm gun. But by then it had to face Panthers and the like.

Anyway, I think it is quite telling that about 80-90% of T-34 tanks that were produced during the war were knocked out or destroyed which is quite a high number given that the SU was one of the victors. I would expect such high loss ratio from a country that lost the war and not from one of the winners. In comparison, the losses of total produced Shermans were somewhere around 20-30%, if I am right. Also it is interesting to compare the tank losses of the Korean war when the T-34 faced the Sherman in actual battle.

- T-70 can replace T-34 at battlefield mostly ?

I don't think so, the T-34 is significantly better.

- Now Full Armored Marder IIIM&Hetzer are looking a much better than Pz IVF2?

Seriouz
Can you explain a little more your changes in Stats (SA/HA/GD/CD) your equipment file (for this units on pic) ?

The Marder IIIM had a special feature: the engine was moved to the middle of the vehicle and as such it could function as additional armour, protecting the gunners in the fighting compartment who were in the back, behind the engine. The Israelis did a similar thing with the Merkava series more recently. The Marder IIIM also had a heavily sloped frontal armour as opposed to the unsloped frontal armour of the Pz.IV. Nevertheless, GD 12 is not very good, actually it is quite weak in 1943-44 when the Marder IIIM is being used in my mod. It cannot really face T-34/43s head-to-head. When on defense, it needs some defensive artillery or it has to stand behind a river to be competative. The Hetzer is certainly better protected than the Panzer IVF2, no doubt. But the Panzer IVF2 was produced and used in 1942 and the Hetzer in 1944-45 so there is not much point in comparing them.

2. Cant find in your e-file a good german AT gun F-22 Pak36 (r)(captured&redisged) - towed 560 pcs (until spring 43), 894 pcs for Marders was made.

In this mod a towed AT unit usually represents 1,000 actual AT guns so this number is a little too low. Maybe there could be only one such unit at max. In comparison 10,000 5 cm Pak 38 and more than 20,000 7.5 cm Pak 40 were produced by Germany, if I am right.

[Yrfin]

When calculating the unit stats I do not only look at armour thickness and gun penetration, but also at other things like having a radio or not, having a three men turret or only two, crew comfort, visibility, optics, reliability, quality of gun, shells and armour, doctrine, etc. etc. In my opinion a tank is a complex weapon system and is not characterised only by its armour strength and main gun.

Youre discovered a solution how make "a other things like having a radio or not, having a three men turret or only two, crew comfort, visibility, optics, reliability, quality of gun, shells and armour, doctrine, etc. etc." in PzC ?
Congratulation !

Maybe you can also check this:
http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com/ ... f-war.html

You also can check this:
https://www.thedailymeal.com/drink/10-f ... cola-myths

Of course there can be endless debates whether the T-34 was the best tank of WW2 ....

Blah, blah, blah ...
I dont need stupid debates in internet.

Also it is interesting to compare the tank losses of the Korean war when the T-34 faced the Sherman in actual battle.

I don't know anything about fight T-34-76 against Sherman in Korea.
Only about the MiG-15 battle against F-86 Saber.

- T-70 can replace T-34 at battlefield mostly ?
I don't think so, the T-34 is significantly better.

Wise desision. But in your Mod T-70 looking like a BIG (GD =11 (!) ). In real it have a 15 mm (!) side armor only

T-70 Kybinka.jpg (106.46 KiB) Viewed 2245 times

The Marder IIIM had a special feature: the engine was moved to the middle of the vehicle ...
and as such it could function as additional armour, protecting the gunners in the fighting compartment ..."

lol.Nothing will save him from a shell of at least 85 mm:). His side armor only 10 mm (!).

In this mod a towed AT unit usually represents 1,000 actual AT guns...
so this number is a little too low. Maybe there could be only one such unit at max. In comparison 10,000 5 cm Pak 38.
.... if I am right.

Im 1942 was maded:
- Pak 40 about 2100 pcs and 560 Pak F-22 (20 %).

Thanks for the answer anyway.

[PeteMitchell]

Wise desision. But in your Mod T-70 looking like a BIG (GD =11 (!) ). In real it have a 15 mm (!) side armor only

T-70 Kybinka.jpg (106.46 KiB) Viewed 6 times

Kubinka is an amazing place!

I recommend everyone to go. Check this link for the summary of my 2019 visit:

viewtopic.php?f=121&t=93278

[McGuba]

Maybe you can also check this:
http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com/ ... f-war.html

You also can check this:
https://www.thedailymeal.com/drink/10-f ... cola-myths

Sorry but I thought we are discussing the computer game Panzer Corps and the various tanks used Warl War II here.
We can of course discuss the otherwise interesting subject of soft drinks as well but I think it would be better to start a seperate topic for that.

Also it is interesting to compare the tank losses of the Korean war when the T-34 faced the Sherman in actual battle.

I don't know anything about fight T-34-76 against Sherman in Korea.

As far as I know the T-34/76 was not used in Korea. The T-34/85 was used instead. There were not too many tank versus tank engagements in Korea though. The Americans used the M4A3 Sherman with the 76 mm long gun. And the M24 Chaffee light and M26 Pershing and M46 Patton heavy tanks. The Americans recorded 119 tank versus tank battles, the majority in 1950 after which tank battles were rare. In the Sherman vs. T-34/85 encounters the Shermans destroyed 24 T-34s for the loss of 7 Shermans. Interestingly, this kill to loss ratio of 3.5 to 1 is very similar to what the Germans achieved against the Soviet tanks in WW2.

As one would expect the M24 light tank fared much worse than the Sherman and the heavy tanks achieved an even better kill to loss ratio against the T-34/85 than the M4A3:
https://www.quora.com/How-did-the-Sherm ... Korean-War

But in your Mod T-70 looking like a BIG (GD =11 (!) ). In real it have a 15 mm (!) side armor only

I do not think that GD 11 is too high for the T-70. Its side armour was indeed quite thin but its front had a heavily sloped armour giving it a 60 mm effective armour at most areas, which is not too bad.

lol.Nothing will save him (the Marder IIIM) from a shell of at least 85 mm:). His side armor only 10 mm (!).

Yes, it is true. In this mod Soviet vehicles equipped with the 85 mm gun have a hard attack value of 17. These can cause significant damage to the Marder IIIM which has a ground defense of only 12.

In this mod a towed AT unit usually represents 1,000 actual AT guns...

Im 1942 was maded:
- Pak 40 about 2100 pcs and 560 Pak F-22 (20 %).

In 1942 the Germans also produced 4,467 5 cm Pak 38 AT guns. If we combine these with the approximately 2,100 Pak 40 produced in the same year the propotion of the Pak F-22 compared to these will be only 8.5%. Nevertheless, the total produced number of Pak F-22 is still well under 1,000 so it doesn't really make a difference.

[uzbek2012]

In war, the main thing is to have steel balls )))

https://spetsialny.livejournal.com/568421.html


https://topwar.ru/78632-neravnye-tankov ... ntery.html



https://summer56.livejournal.com/70795.html

[Yrfin]

Kubinka is an amazing place!
I recommend everyone to go. Check this link for the summary of my 2019 visit:
viewtopic.php?f=121&t=93278

Yep. It was 75 km from my home
ATM Brest disposition: small Museum

Brest tanks.jpg (72.69 KiB) Viewed 2159 times

[Yrfin]

Maybe you can also check this:
http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com/ ... f-war.html

You also can check this:
https://www.thedailymeal.com/drink/10-f ... cola-myths

Sorry but I thought we are discussing the computer game Panzer Corps and the various tanks used Warl War II here.

Sorry but I thought you are have a sense of Humor ...

[guille1434]

Hello McGuba:

After reading an excellent AAR written down by PeteMitchell about his playthrough of the Battlefield: Europe Mod, we exchanged some interesting comments, ideas and info about the Mod and its historical background...

I had some ideas about how to (possibly?) improve or at least make more fun your already very perfected mod, and I would like to know your thoughts about them...

Quoting what I wrote for Pete:

"Now some other comments about some ideas that can be implemented to improve (in my opinion) or just make the mod more fun...

- Add one railway gun unit (may be of limited strenght, like the Karl Gerät already present in the mod). Historically speaking, the Germans captured in 1940 an heterogenous collection of mainly French railway guns, some old models, but some other in rather staisfactory condition. Some of them were taken to the Leningrad vicinity to dd they strenght in the bombardment of the sieged city. Also, the Germans had some rather modern railway guns of their own manufacture... So, I think it would be rather historical to add one railgun unit for the German player.

- I saw that in your game you opted to ignore the bomber raids launched by the occidental Allies against cities in west Europe. Without any intention of making any criticism against your game strategy (after all, you did not cheat or broke any mod/game rule, and you achieved a Total Victofy no less), I think this is not very historically realistic, and the player should be "penalized" somehow for not taking any measure against the bombing of "his" cities, which were, no less than the production centers where many weapons factories where sited. So, unchecked bombing attacks should cause some penalty for the German player (may be prestige loss or some random unit disappearence, in any case, something that force the player to defend against the bombers or taking the risk to lose the war if not).

I am aware that you played version 1.9 of the mod and may be that has been changed in newer versions. Also, I don´t know which difficulty level you played at (realistic, realistic+, etc...). On the other hand, and to compensate, I think that the player should be given some railway flak units to allow him to move them around to help defend against the bombers (as was historically done).

Also, some specific (historical?) night fighter units should be formed in-game and asigned to the player or at least the player be given the posibility to "purchase" night fighter units, to complete the presence in the mod of all the protagonists the played both sides of the night bombing campaign in the western european skies. After all, I read somewhere else that in a newer version of the mod, night harassing units were added, which I think were much less influential in the development of the war than the very specialized night fighter units that defended the night skies over Western Europe."

I would very much like to know your opinion about this matters...

Thanks again for everything and forgive me for the very long posting...

[PeteMitchell]

Thanks, my playthrough viewtopic.php?f=145&t=86481 wasn't perfect by no means but it was what I could do back then...

I think the railway guns are already considered as part of the Karl-Gerät, i.e. given the force balances that McGuba maintains across unit types.

Yes, you already face some prestige loss of up to 300 prestige points per turn when strat bombers are over Germany victory objectives. I ignored it as I needed the firghters in the east and in Africa. I also ignored most of the u-boat war in the Atlantic.

I played version 1.9 on General level. At that point in time, there was only one version of the mod. McGuba introduced the different difficulties only later.

Railway flaks I think are considered as part of the later war big flaks, i.e. the ones bigger than 8.8, not sure?

I think night fighters are available in version 2.0?

[McGuba]

I had some ideas about how to (possibly?) improve or at least make more fun your already very perfected mod, and I would like to know your thoughts about them...

Yes, most of these are already in for some time: 100 prestige points penalty for Allied bombing of each of the German cities in a turn up to a maximum of 300 (also if the Soviets manage to bomb Berlin in 1941 as in reality), "night" fighters for both Axis and Allies, etc. Railway gun is considered to be a part of the Karl siege gun. This unit is supposed to contain all the heavy siege artillery of which there were several different calibers ranging from 15 to 42-48 cm. At this unit scale it would not make a lot of sense to have a different unit for each of them because there were too few of these in reality. In this mod a full strength towed artillery unit represents 1,000 actual guns. There were much less siege guns so even the Karl unit is understrength and cannot be fully replenished. Thanks anyway, much appreciated!

Maybe it is time for you to finally try the mod and see those nice unit icons in action that you made for it?

[1ang]

hi everyone, in the mod there is naval unit as a support for: refueling, ammunition and repairs