facing Midieval Swiss with Hungarians

[allnud]

I am a new player to FOG, but am familiar with pike/halberd armies from other rules/historic research. My questin is this: using FOG, what is the best method with a Hungarian army (mostly knights, LH, and other cavalry (bow, spear, SW) to fight them? We are using 600 pt armies and i expect to have the advantage in scouting so I should have the initiative. It seems to me that I have no ability to hit him frontally with anything worthwhile, don't get handguners or cannon to shoot him with (using the Middle period list), so I am at a loss what to do.

Anybody out there have any insight into the best tactics and list options to use? Looking for some friendly advice from those veteran players out there.

thanks for your insight.

Dave

[babyshark]

A lot will depend on the specific composition of the opponent's army, and how the terrain falls; havign said that, a good general plan, IMHO, would be as follows:

--Minimize the amount of terrain, so that the enemy has less opportunity to secure his flanks;
--Send the Lh (and maybe the Cv) in first to soften up the enemy HF with missile fire and/or get the enemy BGs chasing at strange angles and distances to break up their line;
--If possible, send the Cv looking to expose one or more of the enemy flanks;
--Then send in the Kn for the decisive blow.

Works every time! Unless it doesn't, in which case the failure is undoubtedly due to crummy dice.

Marc

[allnud]

Thanks Marc. Based on the date we are playing (1431), he will have to have 24-120 bases of superior pikeman, up to 24 bases of superior halberds, up to 8 LH xbow and up to 8 bases of LI, bow. Not alot of options, but plenty of good heavy infantry. In a 600pt game, 6 blocks of 8 BG units costs him 384pts, so this will certainly be the bulkof the army. let me know if there is anything else you can think of. I thought about trying a flank march with some LH and my knights to see if i couldn't take his camp and get in his rear. Any thoughts on that as a strategy?

Dave

[rbodleyscott]

I thought about trying a flank march with some LH and my knights to see if i couldn't take his camp and get in his rear. Any thoughts on that as a strategy?

On the whole it is a waste of time sending LH on a flank march. Seizing the enemy camp is not a sufficiently worthwhile goal in itself. Certainly not worth committing a general to. Getting LH in the enemy rear isn't necessarily all that helpful either.

Send non-light mounted troops on a flank march (or two flank marches) and deploy all your LH on the table. You can concentrate them on parts of his army, and if he tries to drive them off the table, your flank march will come on behind him. (But best have an FC sub-general to lead the flank march).

Don't forget that a flank march can come on anywhere on the side table edge, so if he lines up his troops to face the table edge, you can usually come on somewhere they are not.

Take the cheapest (8 point) Hungarian bow armed LH - Average, Bow only - and lots of them. LH numbers is what counts when trying to shoot up the enemy, so don't waste points on Superior quality or additional weapon capabilities. Have them in battle groups of 4 bases and try to concentrate 3 BGs shooting at one enemy BG.

If you use any Szeklers, take them as Superior, Protected (or Unprotected if you are brave), Bow, Swordsmen, Cavalry and deploy them one rank deep so that they can evade.

A good flank marching force would be a BG of knights and one or two BGs of Cavalry szeklers. Note that all the troops on the flank march are Superior, which means they are extremely unlikely to straggle as they can re-roll 1s on their straggle test.

Example 600 (598) point army, which will have your opponent tearing his hair out:

C-in-C TC
SG TC
SG FC (commanding flank march)
1 x 4 Undrilled Superior Knights (on flank march)
2 x 4 Szeklers Cavalry, Protected, Superior, Bow, Swordsmen (on flank march)
8 x 4 Hungarian Light Horse, Unprotected, Average, Bow
1 x 6 Hungarian foot archers, LF, Poor, unprotected, Bow

Needless to say, none of your LH engage in close combat with anything at all except enemy LF. Don't be tempted - anything you might have a chance against in close combat, you will have a better chance against by shooting.

[IanB3406]

Hmmm, seems the real question here is not what do the Hungarians do, but what do the Swiss do. As a Swiss player facing an all mounted skirmish army, I'd thinks it's very frustrating. At 600 points there will likely not be enough terrain or flanks.

My Advice to the Swiss Player- stay out of Hungary and go invade the french.....they can't run around so well.

[shall]

Forget the flank march. Try to take the camp out once the game has evolved using on table troops anyway.

At 650 pts I am not too sure how wide the pikes are. However the plan has to be IMHO:

1. Put down lots of gentle hills - you can't beat him on the flat, but you can stop him if you are uphill. If he stands on a hill, you are no worse off as you are not planning to charge him anyway, you are going try to shoot him down.
2. Keep the knights out of the game until late in the day or they will get massacred by the pikes. Keep a general with them so they can get there quickly when an opportunity open up. 1 BG of 4 Knights is enough.
3. Play swarm for 2/3rds of the game. Concentrate your fire on two relatively vulnerable places (likely to be the edges of the line) and shoot a lot and be patient. You will need a lucky break here and there, but with enough roles....
4. Bait the pikes with troops to try to make them charge - again you will need to be patient as they will pass most tests. Try to pull them around a fair bit by making them charge something other than dead ahead - e.g, bait the edge BGs. Once pulled apart there is more chance of concentrated fire.
5. Use the hills on your side to hide behind.
6. Take some clipeati and War Wagons - at least on a hill they can stop the pikes from marching all the way across the table.
7. Take some handgunners as the extra -1 will be criitcally important in busting Sup troops
8. Force them to come into the 6MU zone on the flank for another -1

Take the flank BGs down and have fun with the rest thereafter - or if they keep passing everything, smile, have a beer and reflect on the fact that you are probably have more fun than the Swiss general. Then lob the knights in late for a dramamtic attempt follwoed up by CV anyway.

Most of all have fun win or lose.

[timmy1]

I've tried the Swiss into Later Hung. in another set with not good results. Sounds much more fun in this set, though not at 650 points. Lots of food for thought in the good stuff here, now all I need is a Magyar willing to play FoG.

[allnud]

Thanks all for the tips. Greatly appreciated. For those that suggested firearms, I only wish i could. Unfortunately, I am stuck with the Middle Hungarian list due to the campaign we are running, so they are out along with the Allies. Keep the suggestions coming and I will let you know how I fare.

Dave

[shall]

Ok so no firearms ... but the plan broadly the same IMHO.

Si

[allnud]

I think we will be facing the Swiss this Sunday, so should be able to report back on whether or not I could execute per your great advice.

[marioslaz]

I'm relatively new to FOG compared with many who wrote many good advice, but anyway I hope my little advice could help you. Try to explore the characteristic of shock troops. Swiss pikeman are all shock troops and they need to test to avoid to charge. This cannot do by a battle line, but by single BG, and with so few point I think very hardly your opponent will can have a general for each pike BG. Instead, if you follow previous advices about army list, you will have just one BG of shock, your knights, whom you can control with one general. You can even keep them in reserve to use when you feel the moment is right. Remember also flank attack causes s cohesion drop only if bring by non-skirmishers, so avoid to attack with your LH even at flank. You can keep them for the final blow, attacking only when opponent is FRAG, because in this case you cannot lose 1 per 2 dice.

[LambertSimnel]

I'm relatively new to FOG compared with many who wrote many good advice, but anyway I hope my little advice could help you. Try to explore the characteristic of shock troops. Swiss pikeman are all shock troops and they need to test to avoid to charge. This cannot do by a battle line, but by single BG, and with so few point I think very hardly your opponent will can have a general for each pike BG. Instead, if you follow previous advices about army list, you will have just one BG of shock, your knights, whom you can control with one general. You can even keep them in reserve to use when you feel the moment is right. Remember also flank attack causes s cohesion drop only if bring by non-skirmishers, so avoid to attack with your LH even at flank. You can keep them for the final blow, attacking only when opponent is FRAG, because in this case you cannot lose 1 per 2 dice.

It can be worth sending LH into the side of an enemy BG that is already in combat, as even though you don't get the cohesion hit on them, you do give them a - POA for fighting in 2 directions.

[DaiSho]

I am a new player to FOG, but am familiar with pike/halberd armies from other rules/historic research. My questin is this: using FOG, what is the best method with a Hungarian army (mostly knights, LH, and other cavalry (bow, spear, SW) to fight them? We are using 600 pt armies and i expect to have the advantage in scouting so I should have the initiative. It seems to me that I have no ability to hit him frontally with anything worthwhile, don't get handguners or cannon to shoot him with (using the Middle period list), so I am at a loss what to do.

Anybody out there have any insight into the best tactics and list options to use? Looking for some friendly advice from those veteran players out there.

thanks for your insight.

Dave

Just a quickie here, but I don't think you want to win initiative here. So don't take an Inspirational General. You shouldn't need him for morale (the Swiss just don't shoot enough) and that will save you points AND the +2 for initiative.

If the Swiss win initiative, he can't really do anything to hurt you. Anything he puts down will be worse for him than for you. So, you let him win Initiative, and then reap the benefits of going first. If you allow him to double move his Pike, you're 3" closer to the edge of the table, and while it might not sound like much it is.

If you put your Lighthorse 15" in, and move (with a General) 14" in the first turn (29" across the table out of 48"), you're seriously hampering his manouver, and thus increasing your choices. You also want to put your light horse down last in this case, so you can put (at least one of) your light horse in front of his pike block and slow it down.

Once you've got it moderately pinned down you can start using your manouver to cause him pain.

Just some thoughts.

Ian

[shall]

Yes losing the intitiaive here is probably a good thing. And more troops are as well so drop the IC.

Si

[DaiSho]

and another thing...

Don't be scared of putting your cavalry and light horse in uneven or rough terrain (especially your cavalry).

In this particular case the Swiss have practically nothing that can fight on even terms in rough. If he puts Light Foot in there you'll likely win. You'll have a + POA for armour and at the very least the same number of dice. Check out all of the factors before delving headlong into an open field brissling with handgunners, but I'm pretty sure you'll find that you'll win the fight in the end.

Be careful of your Light Horse being charged by Light foot AND heavier foot. You'll be forced to run from the heavier foot and thus at a small (although very real) risk of being caught by the light foot. You may win that fight in the end (you also may not) but if the heavier foot get there in time you'll end up in a fight that is totally not going to be nice for you.

Just some thoughts.

Ian

[marioslaz]

I'm relatively new to FOG compared with many who wrote many good advice, but anyway I hope my little advice could help you. Try to explore the characteristic of shock troops. Swiss pikeman are all shock troops and they need to test to avoid to charge. This cannot do by a battle line, but by single BG, and with so few point I think very hardly your opponent will can have a general for each pike BG. Instead, if you follow previous advices about army list, you will have just one BG of shock, your knights, whom you can control with one general. You can even keep them in reserve to use when you feel the moment is right. Remember also flank attack causes s cohesion drop only if bring by non-skirmishers, so avoid to attack with your LH even at flank. You can keep them for the final blow, attacking only when opponent is FRAG, because in this case you cannot lose 1 per 2 dice.

It can be worth sending LH into the side of an enemy BG that is already in combat, as even though you don't get the cohesion hit on them, you do give them a - POA for fighting in 2 directions.

It can be worth if you have a BG which, with a such advantage, can hope to break pikes. I don't see a such BG in the list proposed, so this would be just a suicide for your LH, which would fight with less dice (LH loses 1 on 2) and with no advantage (I haven't list at hand, but I suppose Swiss had better armour of LH which negate the - POA for fighting in 2 directions)

[allnud]

Team,

I did not get the chance to face the Swiss this weekend so it will, hopefully, be teed up for the next one. I am going to continue to heed your advice and work on the list from Richard. Still trying to figure out what to do with the foot archers since that seems like just putting out something for him to kill. The Swiss list in use, will have him with lots of pikemen and then maybe some foot Xbow, some halberdiers and maybe one unit of mtd Xbow, but no handgunners and no cannons. No other horse either.

Any other thoughts?

[Fulgrim]

The LF archers are excellent to trigger unvolountary charges from the pikes. The wont test for being close to mounted so you need LF to get him out of formation.

I do not like flank marches btw, i like to play with all my points from start. And if this is a friendly game i would not take a optimized LH army vs a friends full HF army.

[david53]

I do not like flank marches btw, i like to play with all my points from start.

Is there any reason or do you just don't think they work.

[Fulgrim]

I do not like flank marches btw, i like to play with all my points from start.

Is there any reason or do you just don't think they work.

The do surly work for some players and some armies. But for me, I like to have control over my units and a random flankmarch istn contolled untill it arrives. Further - if the flankmarch is the key to your success its to random and i dont like to be dependant on an "gimmick move", if it supposed to be counter to a bad situation (a safeguard) I find the those situations occur more seldom with full strength on table. I have never liked reserves etc in any ruleset and often mauled the opponents troops on table, wich are "outpointed" untill the reserve arrives, in time to greet the flankers/reserv with a warm welcome.

That said I have started looking at armies to find one that can be a good flanker, just for the fun of trying it at its best in FOG.

In the game in question i guess flankers can be good, but what a boring game! running around with a bunch LH, shooting at superior bricks, waiting for the flankers to enter to be able to actually be able to finish the game. I feel sorry for the bloke with the swiss, not that he neccesarily looses but it will be a long, unsatisfactionary, evening.