My letter to Santa Claus

Byzantine Productions Pike and Shot is a deep strategy game set during the bloody conflict of the Thirty Years War.

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Athos1660
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Re: My letter to Santa Claus

Post by Athos1660 »

Veles wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:12 pm
Athos1660 wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:05 pm - more opportunity fire (not less), not only when enemy is moving, but also when he is charging. It does not have to stop him charging. It would favour a bit charged Arkebusiers and would make charging along shooting units more dangerous.
I'm personally not sure about this one. Seems like something that could destroy the game balance. Besides short distance "welcoming volleys" are already represented by Salvo while all foot already has a chance to shoot at cavalry from a bigger distance. Shooting at closing cavalry is dicey as horses in a change can pass a distance of 50-70 meters in mere seconds. Infantry has to use this time to brace for impact and form behind their pikemen. A small volley from the first line (countermarch) at a 50 meters distance would be all infantrymen can do without risking being overrun.
Salvo foot on the other hand is assumed to meet any attack with a coordinated volley of all of their musket-men. This being possible thanks to their exceptional training.
imho a few more casualties won't "destroy the game balance" and appear quite logical in quite a few instances, especially as enemy moves (without impact) generate opportunity fire.

However, there could be technical considerations and choices of gameplay :-)
Veles
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Re: My letter to Santa Claus

Post by Veles »

Athos1660 wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:30 pm imho a few more casualties won't "destroy the game balance" and appear quite logical in quite a few instances, especially as enemy moves (without impact) generate opportunity fire.

However, there could be technical considerations and choices of gameplay :-)
Some of those instances you're describing (in the linked topic) could completely change the outcome of some encounters.

Imagine if charging any kind of infantry battle line would trigger a response from all infantry units close by. Your Salvo foot or Cavalry could end up being shot by 3 or 4 units at the time just by initiating a charge. That would make Salvo foot even worse than it is now. And cavalry would lose its potential for "mopping up" disrupted infantry units since they would almost always have other units in support. It would definitely destroy the balance.
Athos1660
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Re: My letter to Santa Claus

Post by Athos1660 »

Veles wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 5:38 pm
Athos1660 wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:30 pm imho a few more casualties won't "destroy the game balance" and appear quite logical in quite a few instances, especially as enemy moves (without impact) generate opportunity fire.

However, there could be technical considerations and choices of gameplay :-)
Some of those instances you're describing (in the linked topic) could completely change the outcome of some encounters.
Right now, this unit can charge along 3 shooting units knowing from the start that they'll cause it 0 casualty :

Image

Each time I am in this situation, I don't like it. It's too easy, unfair, unrealistic as I for one feel it.

I just advocate that the unit loses a few soldiers so that its charge won't be as effective as if there were no shooting unit along its path. It sounds logic to me. How many casualties should there be ? Would there be a risk that the unit becomes disrupted/fragmented/routed before reaching its target and fails its charge ? (1) That's a matter of balance. But the principle sounds to me fair and fun. Will I dare to charge in the midst of shooting enemy units ? There must be a risk. Right now, there is none. More risk would add more fun to the game imho.

And poor little Arquebusiers deserve to make some casualties before being eaten :

Image

Just my opinion :-)

___

(1) Why not imo ?
Veles
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Re: My letter to Santa Claus

Post by Veles »

Athos1660 wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:25 pm


Right now, this unit can charge along 3 shooting units knowing from the start that they'll cause it 0 casualty :

Image

Each time I am in this situation, I don't like it. It's too easy, unfair, unrealistic as I for one feel it.

I just advocate that the unit loses a few soldiers so that its charge won't be as effective as if there were no shooting unit along its path. It sounds logic to me. How many casualties should there be ? Would there be a risk that the unit becomes disrupted/fragmented/routed before reaching its target and fails its charge ? (1) That's a matter of balance. But the principle sounds to me fair and fun. Will I dare to charge in the midst of shooting enemy units ? There must be a risk. Right now, there is none. More risk would add more fun to the game imho.

And poor little Arquebusiers deserve to make some casualties before being eaten :

Image

Just my opinion :-)

___

(1) Why not imo ?

Hmmm, I guess one way to do it would be to decrease the charge range of cavalry. Let's say, allow them to charge only when they are two squares of the target. That way you would have to manually move them into position to charge. That would trigger the interception volleys from infantry and cavalry. I guess it makes sense to implement it that way.
I would also make Determined Horse and Foot be able to initiate charge from a bigger distance.

What do you think?
Athos1660
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Re: My letter to Santa Claus

Post by Athos1660 »

Veles wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:51 pm Hmmm, I guess one way to do it would be to decrease the charge range of cavalry. Let's say, allow them to charge only when they are two squares of the target. That way you would have to manually move them into position to charge. That would trigger the interception volleys from infantry and cavalry. I guess it makes sense to implement it that way.
Interesting. Why not ? It seems to be an easy and good way to implement it.

The other way would be to update 'in real time' the number of alive soldiers in the charging unit during the charge depending on the casualties. I don't know whether it is possible.
Veles wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:51 pm I would also make Determined Horse and Foot be able to initiate charge from a bigger distance.
Not sure about Determined Horse. Maybe yes. But being determined don't preserve oneself from enemy shooting.

As for Foot, charges without opportunity fire is imho an "issue" for units with numerous AP (light foot, light horse, dragoons, 16-AP cavalry) able to charge after a long run in front of shooting enemy units, not for P&S units with only 10 AP frontally charging an enemy. So I agree that opportunity fire during non-light Foot's charges is useless.

(edit)
I've just realized that LF have only 12 AP, so I correct myself : I agree that opportunity fire during any Foot's charges is useless.
Last edited by Athos1660 on Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Veles
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Re: My letter to Santa Claus

Post by Veles »

Athos1660 wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:13 pm Interesting. Why not ? It seems to be an easy way to implement it but its drawback is that it makes the player click more frequently, several times for one charge which is a change compared to the series of games.
I guess it could be reversed. Let's say, fire opportunity triggers only after the charging unit travels further than two squares and remains in the unit's fire arc through at least two squares of the charge. Seems balanced enough and would eliminate the need for clicking many times.

So how I see it, in this situation, only two of the three Pike&Shot units would have a chance to shoot. The middle one with half arc and the last one with the full arc of fire. While the first from the left would not have enough time to shoot.

Image

What do you think about that?
Athos1660 wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:13 pm Not sure about Determined Horse. Maybe. But being determined don't preserve oneself from shooting.
Yeah, but I'm assuming that Determined Horse consists of particularly fierce and quick cavalry allowing them to cover greater distances in less time. Which in turn allows them to avoid some of the enemy fire.
That would make a reasonably realistic difference between fast-moving cavalry formed in shallower formations like Hussars or Horse and heavy and deep formations of Reiters, Cuirassiers, and Gendarmes (no deep formation but still rather slow).
Last edited by Veles on Mon Dec 21, 2020 3:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
Athos1660
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Re: My letter to Santa Claus

Post by Athos1660 »

Veles wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:34 pm I guess it could be reversed. Let's say, fire opportunity triggers only after the charging unit travels further than two squares and remains in the unit's fire arc through at least two squares of the charge. Seems balanced enough and would eliminate the need for clicking many times.

So how I see it, in this situation, only two of the three Pike&Shot units would have a chance to shoot. One (the middle one) with half arc and one (the last) with the full arc of fire. While the first from the left would not have enough time to shoot.

Image

What do you think about that?
Very nice !
Veles wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:34 pm
Athos1660 wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:13 pm Not sure about Determined Horse. Maybe. But being determined don't preserve oneself from shooting.
Yeah, but I'm assuming that Determined Horse consists of particularly fierce and quick cavalry allowing them to cover the greater distances in less time. Which in turn allows them to avoid some of the enemy fire.
That would make a reasonably realistic difference between fast-moving cavalry formed in shallower formations like Hussars or Horse and heavy and deep formations of Reiters, Cuirassiers, and Gendarmes (no deep formation but still rather slow).
I was about to post that I agree with you about Determined Horse for this very reason just before I read your post.
You're right.
The fun of the DH charges must be indeed preserved.
Athos1660
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Re: My letter to Santa Claus

Post by Athos1660 »

Veles wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:34 pm That would make a reasonably realistic difference between fast-moving cavalry formed in shallower formations like Hussars or Horse and heavy and deep formations of Reiters, Cuirassiers, and Gendarmes (no deep formation but still rather slow).
btw that would be a bad idea to emphasise this difference in speed by reallocating AP one way or the other, wouldn't it ?

Gendarmes : 12 AP
Kuirassiers, late gendarmes and reiters : 16 AP
Determined horses, PWHussars, Horse, Arkebusiers, Light horse : 20 AP

or

Gendarmes, Kuirassiers, late gendarmes and reiters : 12 AP
Determined horses, PWHussars, Horse, Arkebusiers : 16 AP
Light horse : 20 AP

or

???
Veles
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Re: My letter to Santa Claus

Post by Veles »

Salve Fratres!

Considering the fact that Christmas is almost upon us I decided it's time a good time to add a couple of things to this collective letter to st. Nicholas. Maybe someday in the future, he'll grant us our wishes :)


Just as other people suggested, adding weather conditions would definitely be interesting. I think they could be introduced in a similar fashion to the map terrain profiles like Agricultural or Hilly. And just like those map types, they could come with their own terrain types unique to the season/weather as well as some additional effects on the performance of certain units.

How I see it it could look like this:

I. We could choose from an array of weather types or leave it at random. Those weather types would be:

1) Warm - this would default weather in random battles, representing the clear sunny spring/summer/early autumn day

2) Warm (Rain) - this would represent a rain light enough that commanders did not decide to postpone a confrontation waiting for better weather (battles during heavy rain or storms rarely ever happen), yet it would still inflict a slight shooting penalty to bows, crossbows, and firearms and artillery only leaving javelins unaffected.

3) Winter - winter battles and sieges weren't uncommon in the Early Modern Era, especially in Eastern Europe. Shotting penalty for crossbows, no penalty for muskets/arquebuses.

4) Winter (Snowfall) - a winter map with a snowfall, applies a slight penalty to firearms and a more serious penalty to crossbows.

5) Warm/Winter (Fog) - instead of applying a boring shooting penalty I think fog should simply reduce every units' line of sight. It would make Fog battles more interesting (pun intended)

II. Now with some of those weather types, there could be added terrain types that are unique only to those weather conditions. For example:

1) Winter and Winter (Snowfall) could have:
a) Deep snow - the equivalent of Rough Terrain. Costs more AP to travel through and disorders Cavalry, Heavy and Mixed foot.

b) Snowdrift - an obstacle similar to hedges we know from the English Civil War module. They would provide 10%/34% cover (moved/unmoved) and protection from rear and flank charges.

c) Frozen Stream - it would either replace all streams (regular and deep ones) or just be added as the third type of stream available only on winter maps. The frozen stream could cost more ap to cross than regular terrain but wouldn't disorder any troops and maybe it wouldn't count as closed terrain at all.

d) (optional) Frozen Rivers and Lakes. Again either replacing regular ones or simply a chance of spawning this type instead of the regular ones. Unlike the normal Rivers/Lakes the frozen variety is a passable terrain. I guess it is up to discussion if it should be passable for all units or maybe some like Gendarmes, Tercios/Keils and artillery should be excluded.

e) (optional) Frozen Marsh - offers 10% cover if unmoved but no longer disorders. Regular marshes shouldn't be replaced but rather be mixed with them to represent ice holes that can be often found in marshes due to the heat produced by decaying organic matter.


2. Warm (Rain), I don't think this weather condition should come with any unique terrain types, since Rough Ground can already represent muddy ground well enough. My only suggestion could be that in Random Map if the weather condition is set to Warm (Rain) there should be a higher chance of spawning deep streams instead of regular ones and a higher chance of spawning marshes representing wet meadows. Hmm, you know what, maybe Wet Meadows could function as a separate terrain type offering the same penalties as marshes but without the cover bonus?

III. Optional stuff:

1) Additional weather condition available only in the Editor called Warm (Rained) that would imply that... yeah you guessed it, it was raining before the battle, either night before or earlier the same day. It would allow applying a custom penalty to either both or one of the sides of the battle implying they did a poor job at keeping their strings/gunpowder from getting wet. We could also decide on the severity of the penalty from 10 to 24% (independent for both sides). We could also decide if all units are affected or just the artillery. I think that would be useful for recreating certain historical battles.


IV. Explanation and summary: I thought I should offer some explanation for some of the proposals. I think that default penalties for shooting during rain and snowfall should be rather small as soldiers usually weren't complete idiots and did a good job of protecting their bowstrings or gunpowder from getting wet. So my suggestion is that the penalty for snowing and rain should be about 10% to represent additional time and care being put be soldiers to protect their weapons from being affected by the weather and to represent a higher chance for misfires in case of firearms and artillery.

Crossbows are an exception though since I suggest they should suffer a penalty from snowfall and an additional penalty just from the cold weather. I suggested so because metal prods (bows) of the late heavy crossbows are prone to crack in low temperatures. On top of that cranequins or windlasses can freeze or malfunction in another way in low temperatures.

Another thing you might notice is that I didn't include more extreme weather conditions like Snow Storms and Heavy Rains. That's because historically speaking such weather would prevent the battle from starting or force both sides to disengage.

P.S. I apologize if someone else already made a similar suggestion in this thread or a similar one.

P.S.2 This would also fit nicely in FoG 2 Medieval since Middle Ages contrary to popular belief also saw a decent amount of winter warfare, especially in Central and Eastern Europe since Mongols/Tatars often launched their raids during winter. Not to mention the famous effects of rain in the Battle of Crécy.
Last edited by Veles on Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:38 am, edited 3 times in total.
Athos1660
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Re: My letter to Santa Claus

Post by Athos1660 »

Very well thought. Well done !
Weather conditions would be a wonderful and major addition to the game, adding a welcome variety in battles.

(I for one would add another type of "terrain" : walls in various states of destruction, offering thus various bonuses of Defending Fortification : +33, +50, +75... A single 3D model of broken wall seems to me enough btw.)
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Re: My letter to Santa Claus

Post by TomoeGozen »

And wind affecting bow range? (See Towton, battle of). ☺
Athos1660
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Re: My letter to Santa Claus

Post by Athos1660 »

Veles wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:17 pm Considering the fact that Christmas is almost upon us I decided it's time a good time to add a couple of things to this collective letter to st. Nicholas. Maybe someday in the future, he'll grant us our wishes :)
This very nice dream may indeed come true someday as FoG2: Ancients...
(...) already has the effects of rain and snow coded, and they can be added to scenarios in the Editor or in the scenario script.
Rain :
Image
(I did my homework at last)

"All it takes" is adding weather conditions in the battle options. It would be an amazing feature in a game like P&S.
Athos1660
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Re: My letter to Santa Claus

Post by Athos1660 »

Could there be an option for random weather change during the batte so that it might start raining or snowing or the fog would increase beginning the turn 2 or 15... ?
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Re: My letter to Santa Claus

Post by Athos1660 »

Dismount before the battle is a feature that exists in FoGII. Would there be a way to make Mount/Dismount functioning during battles for Dragoons in a P&S game ?

(To be clear, I really like Dragoons (and Commanded shots btw) as they are currently and I know it is often a bad idea to change a feature that actually works fine but I also like trying to think of new game mechanics even if they turn out to be bad ones. Np, I am no expert :-) )
Athos1660
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Re: My letter to Santa Claus

Post by Athos1660 »

What follows is a matter of personal taste...

I don't know what others think about it but I am not a total fan of how camera moves with artillery shooting.

Actually :
1) You select your artillery.
2) Then you manually move the camera to the target and click shoot.
3) The camera automatically moves back to focus on your artillery.
4) The camera follows the trajectory of the projectile to the target.

I understand that it allows to show both the animation of the artillery/projectile and the number of casualties. But I don't like it very much, when the camera automatically moves back and forth again and again (steps 3 and 4). This is of course more noteworthy when zooming in.

How about letting the camera stay where you put it during step 2 (when you click on shoot) : either you decided to focus (zoom in) on the target and you'll only see the projectile hitting it and the number of casualties, or you can zoom out and see both the artillery (and its animation) in the foreground and the target/number of casualties in the background ?
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Re: My letter to Santa Claus

Post by Cronos09 »

Merry Christmas!
Athos, try to comment out the next script block in CombatTools.BSF

Code: Select all

// If  the shooters were artillery or ship , and hence perhaps far away, then move the camera to look at the target
	if ((IsArtillery(me) == 1) || (IsUnitSquadType(me, "Ship") == 1))
		{
			AddVizCamUnit(unit);
		}
Athos1660
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Re: My letter to Santa Claus

Post by Athos1660 »

Merry Christmas to you, Cronos, and to all !

Thank you so much for this virtual Christmas gift (the bit of code) :-)

Unfortunately, it removes Step 4 but not Step 3 as I'd also like to. So wherever you look at, the camera keep on moving to focus on the artillery shooting and you can't see the target nor the number of casualties anymore, unless you have zoomed out to the max.
Athos1660
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Re: My letter to Santa Claus

Post by Athos1660 »

I selected my artillery.
Now I click on 'Shoot this target' but the camera does not move, even if the artillery is not on the screen anymore :

Image
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Re: My letter to Santa Claus

Post by Cronos09 »

To exclude Step 3, I think you need to add the next condition under the line // focus camera on unit and play fire effect

Code: Select all

	if ((IsArtillery(me) == 0) || (IsUnitSquadType(me, "Ship") == 0))
		{
			AddVizCamUnit(me);
		}
Athos1660
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Re: My letter to Santa Claus

Post by Athos1660 »

I doesn't work for me but it must be something like this as I commented...

Code: Select all

// focus camera on unit and play fire 
// AddVizCamUnit(me);
... and it worked.


Looking at the code and thinking about a feature help understanding why this is actually in game. The focus on the shooting unit then on the target helps the player to understand... what happens on the battlefield when AI or the enemy shoot, ie during opportunity fires on both side and during enemy's turns. So it is necessary during those phases.

When I shoot, I don't need to see my artillery (step 3), the camera can stay focused on the target so that I know the number of casualty. But in case of opportunity fire or enemy shooting, I need to know both which unit shoots (step 3) and who is its target (step 4).
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