AT support bug?

[Scrapulous]

I think there's a problem with AT support. AT units don't seem to support other AT units. Has it always been this way, or is it newly broken?

For instance, I had a T-13 (captured Soviet SP AT unit) supported by a 21 cm Mrs 18 (German artillery with the AT support trait). An enemy Somua attacked the T-13. The Mrs 18 did nothing in response.

I noticed it during the Battle of Arras, as well. Rommel provides you with some 3.7cm Pak AT guns, in two clusters. The north cluster has three guns, the west cluster has two. The guns are adjacent to one another, and to enemy armor. When the enemy armor attacks, the guns don't support one another. It's easy to see it in action by loading your Arras turn 0 save, especially notable if you collapse the northern cluster into a triangle formation so that no gun can be attacked by enemy hard units without taking supporting fire from the other two... at least in theory. But neither gun fires in support.

So am I misunderstanding how AT support is supposed to work, or is this broken? Are other people noticing this?

[NeyLutzow]

I think there's a problem with AT support. AT units don't seem to support other AT units. Has it always been this way, or is it newly broken?

For instance, I had a T-13 (captured Soviet SP AT unit) supported by a 21 cm Mrs 18 (German artillery with the AT support trait). An enemy Somua attacked the T-13. The Mrs 18 did nothing in response.

I noticed it during the Battle of Arras, as well. Rommel provides you with some 3.7cm Pak AT guns, in two clusters. The north cluster has three guns, the west cluster has two. The guns are adjacent to one another, and to enemy armor. When the enemy armor attacks, the guns don't support one another. It's easy to see it in action by loading your Arras turn 0 save, especially notable if you collapse the northern cluster into a triangle formation so that no gun can be attacked by enemy hard units without taking supporting fire from the other two... at least in theory. But neither gun fires in support.

So am I misunderstanding how AT support is supposed to work, or is this broken? Are other people noticing this?

Yes I also notice this! In fact it was right now while playing spanish civil war my 3.7cm was attacked and I had another 3.7cm covering her in a adjacent hex but it did not fire to support. I don't know why it works like that maybe the devs fought we would abuse this?

[adiekmann]

I think there's a problem with AT support. AT units don't seem to support other AT units. Has it always been this way, or is it newly broken?

For instance, I had a T-13 (captured Soviet SP AT unit) supported by a 21 cm Mrs 18 (German artillery with the AT support trait). An enemy Somua attacked the T-13. The Mrs 18 did nothing in response.

I noticed it during the Battle of Arras, as well. Rommel provides you with some 3.7cm Pak AT guns, in two clusters. The north cluster has three guns, the west cluster has two. The guns are adjacent to one another, and to enemy armor. When the enemy armor attacks, the guns don't support one another. It's easy to see it in action by loading your Arras turn 0 save, especially notable if you collapse the northern cluster into a triangle formation so that no gun can be attacked by enemy hard units without taking supporting fire from the other two... at least in theory. But neither gun fires in support.

So am I misunderstanding how AT support is supposed to work, or is this broken? Are other people noticing this?

Yes I also notice this! In fact it was right now while playing spanish civil war my 3.7cm was attacked and I had another 3.7cm covering her in a adjacent hex but it did not fire to support. I don't know why it works like that maybe the devs fought we would abuse this?

I brought this up a long time ago and it is not a bug. It is intentional. While developing the game they found that it made AT units too powerful. So AT does not support other AT units. Ever. I think you can support AT with artillery though...

[NeyLutzow]

I think there's a problem with AT support. AT units don't seem to support other AT units. Has it always been this way, or is it newly broken?

For instance, I had a T-13 (captured Soviet SP AT unit) supported by a 21 cm Mrs 18 (German artillery with the AT support trait). An enemy Somua attacked the T-13. The Mrs 18 did nothing in response.

I noticed it during the Battle of Arras, as well. Rommel provides you with some 3.7cm Pak AT guns, in two clusters. The north cluster has three guns, the west cluster has two. The guns are adjacent to one another, and to enemy armor. When the enemy armor attacks, the guns don't support one another. It's easy to see it in action by loading your Arras turn 0 save, especially notable if you collapse the northern cluster into a triangle formation so that no gun can be attacked by enemy hard units without taking supporting fire from the other two... at least in theory. But neither gun fires in support.

So am I misunderstanding how AT support is supposed to work, or is this broken? Are other people noticing this?

Yes I also notice this! In fact it was right now while playing spanish civil war my 3.7cm was attacked and I had another 3.7cm covering her in a adjacent hex but it did not fire to support. I don't know why it works like that maybe the devs fought we would abuse this?

I brought this up a long time ago and it is not a bug. It is intentional. While developing the game they found that it made AT units too powerful. So AT does not support other AT units. Ever. I think you can support AT with artillery though...

It makes sense that's what I thought.

[Scrapulous]

I see. Thanks for explaining! I wish the description of the AT Support trait included that information.

"I think you can support AT with artillery though..."

If it's artillery that provides support against soft targets (15cm tubes and smaller, and rockets), I imagine so. If it's artillery that provides support against hard targets (15cm tubes and larger), then no. That's the situation that made me post (self-propelled AT supported by artillery with AT support, attacked by tank), and it didn't work.

[adiekmann]

I see. Thanks for explaining! I wish the description of the AT Support trait included that information.

"I think you can support AT with artillery though..."

If it's artillery that provides support against soft targets (15cm tubes and smaller, and rockets), I imagine so. If it's artillery that provides support against hard targets (15cm tubes and larger), then no. That's the situation that made me post (self-propelled AT supported by artillery with AT support, attacked by tank), and it didn't work.

Logically, I keep thinking that artillery SHOULD be able to support AT guns whenever they are attacked, but I believe that might not be true. I still swear that sometimes the artillery support doesn't always work when backing up Nationalist troops in SCW too, but it could be some combination of funky AT rules that are the reason. I agree; it is all very tricky stuff and some detailed clarification is probably in order by someone who understands it thoroughly!

[egrofik]

Well, I saw this new "feature" also at the battle of Arras and some times before in AO40.
I placed in the upper right corner an infantry unit in the town and an artillery 15cm behind this an a pak37 besides.
If the Matilda II tank attacked me, the arty gives not the promised support. (the 15cm arty supports soft an hard attacks)
In my opinion it is a bug.

[Edmon]

All 15cm's will defend against an attacking hard target as shown here:
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 4AFBE965B/

Anti-Tanks will not defend each other, as shown here:
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 5F2B9159B/

The observant will note that the artillery does more suppression here, but the single AT even though it doesn't get any support from its allies will get 5 kills if I press the attack.

The issue here really is that the artillery is not designed to be attacked directly, suppression works great because the defending unit (that isn't the artillery, so anything really, infantry, tank, whatever) will get tons of kills because the attacker is already heavily suppressed.

[egrofik]

Okay, let me explain my issue.
Now seen at Trouyes.
My 8,8 in AT mode, behind them the 15 cm artillery.
The french char b1 attacked my 8,8 but my arty give no support.
Why?

[dalfrede]

My 8,8 in AT mode, behind them the 15 cm artillery.
The french char b1 attacked my 8,8 but my arty give no support.
Why?

ATSupport does not support ATSupport. Its a trait function not a class function.

The question left is how a ATSupport hero affects the situation.

[Scrapulous]

But according to Edmon, 15cm artillery, which have both Artillery Support and AT Support, will support one another against hard targets. So that breaks the rule of "AT Support does not work for another unit with AT Support."

I'm having a hard time seeing a consistent rule here.

[dalfrede]

But according to Edmon, 15cm artillery, which have both Artillery Support and AT Support, will support one another against hard targets. So that breaks the rule of "AT Support does not work for another unit with AT Support."

I'm having a hard time seeing a consistent rule here.

I think Edmon is wrong here.
But I could be wrong, it may be ATSupport doesn't support AT.

[Scrapulous]

Did you look at his screenshots? It's hard to see how he's wrong.

[George_Parr]

Seems pretty straight forward to me.
A 15cm gun will support another 15cm gun against a hard-attack, because neither is an anti-tank weapon. An anti-tank weapon won't get any support against a hard-attack, because it already is the special unit against such an attack.

Though I'm not sure if I haven't seen artillery support an anti-tank gun in such a situation. It's one of those things that you actually have to go back and take a look, because it might as well not have happened, and I only remember the offensive action instead.

[Scrapulous]

Ok, I did a little testing, myself. I think George Parr's theory is correct. It's not that "ATSupport doesn't support ATSupport," as dalfrede wrote; it's "ATSupport doesn't suport AT-class units."

Here's how I tested: two AT guns and a 15cm artillery, sitting in a triangle formation.

Tank attacks one of the AT guns, and neither the AT gun nor the artillery offer support:

pc2 AT support 2.jpg (226.96 KiB) Viewed 2210 times

Tank attacks the artillery, and both AT guns offer support:

pc2 AT support.jpg (332.04 KiB) Viewed 2210 times

I wanted to test with heroes, but it looks like cheats don't work in multiplayer, so I'm not sure how to make that happen. I was using hotseat so that I could set this condition up quickly.

[Kerensky]

AT don't support AT for the same reasoning fighters don't support other fighters.

[Edmon]

The rule is that AT TYPE units cannot be supported. Same with fighter TYPE units cannot be supported.

Units with AT support TRAIT can support other units with the AT support TRAIT as long as they are not AT TYPE.

I hope this clarifies the rules. This is the reason why I go all-in on 15cm in my standard campaign and avoid deploying any AT TYPE units at all.

Note: A converted AA gun is considered to be an AT TYPE unit, as it literally changes the unit TYPE when you convert it. Amusingly, the AT support TRAIT hero on an AA gun (that hasn't converted) would support. Isn't that weird? Well, it's a thing you could exploit since the AA version of the 8.8 still has a decent hard attack ...

Good times .