Horse Archer army?

[Huaxtec15mm]

Would a HA army (Mongols, Mamluks, Ilkhanids, etc...) be a good selection for a first time player or should I stick w/ something more balanced?

[Irmin]

Would a HA army (Mongols, Mamluks, Ilkhanids, etc...) be a good selection for a first time player or should I stick w/ something more balanced?

I'm a first time player and have asked a similar question on army type, my conclusion is there isn't a right or wrong army and you have to go for an army you want to play, within the obvious paramaters of some armies are dogs and not playable.

of course, some of the more experienced players on here will now shoot me down in flames

[philqw78]

If you like to play with a bit of tactical finesse go with the horse archers. If you want to shove it down someones throat go with a bunch of knights, but make sure thay are hard knights

Depends on what sort of games you expect to play. If both players a relatively new go for both the same sort of army

[grahambriggs]

I used a lot of skirmishers in my first army (Bosporan) and it was useful as I could recover from mistakes more easily. The problem was that the 'solid' troops I did have were overmatched.

[Polkovnik]

I would say no. Partly because they are difficult to use compared to an infantry based army, but also because you will frequently find games are frustrating and not much fun (for either player).
Lets say you come up against a solid foot army. You spend the whole game shooting and evading, probably not doing a lot of damage, he spends the whole game chasing you around until you flee off the table.
I think horse archers are useful in many armies combined with other troops, but I wouldn't recommend a largely horse archer army as your first army.

[expendablecinc]

I would say no. Partly because they are difficult to use compared to an infantry based army, but also because you will frequently find games are frustrating and not much fun (for either player).
Lets say you come up against a solid foot army. You spend the whole game shooting and evading, probably not doing a lot of damage, he spends the whole game chasing you around until you flee off the table.
I think horse archers are useful in many armies combined with other troops, but I wouldn't recommend a largely horse archer army as your first army.

I say yes. but only on the priviso that it has some punch eg internal hospitaller or allied cilician armenian or later crusaders

No if you are intending a p[rimarily light horse horse archer armies biut the ones you suggest have opportuniy for loads of drilled superior cav horse archers which is different entirely and as graham says is a forgiving army composition.

As a first army though you wont get much opportunity to try out other list types whereas some more flexible lists still have the potential for a LH Cav army but can optionally have loads of decent heavy foot instead.

anthony

[speedy]

I'd say go for something more rounded .... Rationale .... As Graham says, horse archers are flexible and you can get yourself out of your self-inflected problems easily, but your tactics are broadly the same against most opponents, and the tactics of most opponents are broadly the same aginst you, and they're not that representative of the game as a whole .... The upshot is, once you've mastered your horse archer army, you've got to start learning all over again when you pick up your second army ....

[david53]

I would say no. Partly because they are difficult to use compared to an infantry based army, but also because you will frequently find games are frustrating and not much fun (for either player).
Lets say you come up against a solid foot army. You spend the whole game shooting and evading, probably not doing a lot of damage, he spends the whole game chasing you around until you flee off the table.
I think horse archers are useful in many armies combined with other troops, but I wouldn't recommend a largely horse archer army as your first army.

I think I'll disagree with you to use a Horse Army correctly its not just shoot and evade, maybe thats how you see it. I have both used LH shooty armies and faced them.

I had a game on Monday night at the club with a member who like myself took a Mongal army and it was one of the most its complex manouvre games I've played of FOG and yes there was a result no one got pushed of the table.

If I allowed myself to be pushed of the table with a heavy foot army I'm sure i would deserve to be beaten.

Lets just say I come up against a Heavy foot army(which i have) I send two units on a flank march no matter how good you are you can't fight two ways at the same time, or i take on your Cavalry ignoring those fast 3 inch moving foot the turning 90 degrees to split the table only works if the LH let you move . Most shooty armies have either very good Cav drilled superior bow/sword who can take on most things, 60/40 is a good split between LH/Cavalry

I played when I started FOG with a shooty Cav army and I still have'nt got the hang of using the Cavalry part they are hard to use correctly. But if you want armies that forgive mistakes use a heavy foot army armoured if you can, I enjoy them myself.

But have a laugh whatever army you take to I'm sure you enjoy the games theres so many armies to chose from now you'll find something you'll like

[hazelbark]

There are a few differnt type of horse archer armies too and the posts in response to yours tend to make an assumption.

One is a lot of Light horse bow and the other is a lot of cavalry bow. Now in reality each army uses a mix of each. But some people think its not a horse archerr army without 7 or so Light Horse. Others use cavarly.

I think starting off a more even mix is a good place. Light horse can get mugged if you are not careful.

[david53]

There are a few differnt type of horse archer armies too and the posts in response to yours tend to make an assumption.

One is a lot of Light horse bow and the other is a lot of cavalry bow. Now in reality each army uses a mix of each. But some people think its not a horse archerr army without 7 or so Light Horse. Others use cavarly.

I think starting off a more even mix is a good place. Light horse can get mugged if you are not careful.

Quite agree I asked around on the site and worked out for my Khazar army 5 LH BGs Bow/sword, 4 Cav Superior Bow/sword and one Lancer Superior Cav BG. It takes a bit of working but altogether I like the way it works.
Dave

[BlackPrince]

I had a look a the LH shooty armies Nik has used, they have one thing in common there is some form of impact troops they are not all shooty LH and Cav. I assume the theory being if your opponent does not come out to dance with your LH or you are loosing the shooting battle then you bring up the impact troops and try a batter a whole in the enemy line. Some have impact foot other have lancer cav personally lancer cav may perform better as you can react faster to any sign of weakness in you enemy.

Keith

[david53]

I had a look a the LH shooty armies Nik has used, they have one thing in common there is some form of impact troops they are not all shooty LH and Cav. I assume the theory being if your opponent does not come out to dance with your LH or you are loosing the shooting battle then you bring up the impact troops and try a batter a whole in the enemy line. Some have impact foot other have lancer cav personally lancer cav may perform better as you can react faster to any sign of weakness in you enemy.

Keith

The problum with Lancer cav is that being impact troops they can get in to trouble very easy. Superior Cav Bow/Sword are quite strong troops good to charge foot if they are disrupted.
Dave

[carlos]

I play Timurids and I start the army comp w/ 7*4 BGs of fully-kitted sup cavalry. Then I add other bits and pieces but basically the really good cavalry can perform all roles on the battlefield, whether shooting, charging against weaklings or maneuvering quickly to other points in the battlefield. Obviously it can't face knights in a straight-up fight or spearmen HF, etc, but it can evade and shoot these, while winning somewhere else. The problem I have w/ a swarm of LH is that if the enemy is solid then it can only get a winning draw as the lack of troops that can break enemies becomes glaring after a while.

[BlackPrince]

Carlos have you thought about using elephants in your Timurids to break knights?

Keith

[carlos]

Carlos have you thought about using elephants in your Timurids to break knights?

Keith

Yes, I forgot to mention I always use the elephants - they are good for a laugh. So far I've had 3 games w/ the Timurids. In one the elephants pinned a group of Hungarian Knights forcing them to charge them and dying. In another they were awesome creating a big gap against an Ottoman army by bulldozing through Sipahis. In the third game they beat the knights in front of them but I took some punishment from not being able to catch ALL the knights. Ideally you need more than 2*2 elephants as that only covers 1 BG of 4 knights in terms of frontage. I guess they are good in their book but of course you need to support them w/ generals and rear support if possible as knights usually come into elephants re-rolling 1s and 2s. Even w/ less dice and a PoA down they can prove tricky.

[DaiSho]

Would a HA army (Mongols, Mamluks, Ilkhanids, etc...) be a good selection for a first time player or should I stick w/ something more balanced?

My first games were with Saka.

I think the horse archers armies are a great first timer army.

* If you build the army right you can pretty much just play on a bowling green (steppe) and not have to worry too much about the nuances of terrain. You can learn by watching people use terrain against your army.
* You can't get into a whole lot of trouble with the army. Win or lose you'll have fun.
* You can learn all about manouver. Even undrilled offensive spear Vikings have benefitted from my experiences with horse archers.
* A hairy barbarian on a horse is a hairy barbarian on a horse. You may not be able to successfully play as some kind of moslem, but Mongol, Hun, Saka, Skythian, Hsuing Nu (eventually) - what's the difference in 15mm? So you get the advantage of having a core of horse archers, and then build up from there. I'm going from Saka to Palmyran in one easy swing

Just my views.

[david53]

Would a HA army (Mongols, Mamluks, Ilkhanids, etc...) be a good selection for a first time player or should I stick w/ something more balanced?

My first games were with Saka.

I think the horse archers armies are a great first timer army.

* If you build the army right you can pretty much just play on a bowling green (steppe) and not have to worry too much about the nuances of terrain. You can learn by watching people use terrain against your army.
* You can't get into a whole lot of trouble with the army. Win or lose you'll have fun.
* You can learn all about manouver. Even undrilled offensive spear Vikings have benefitted from my experiences with horse archers.
* A hairy barbarian on a horse is a hairy barbarian on a horse. You may not be able to successfully play as some kind of moslem, but Mongol, Hun, Saka, Skythian, Hsuing Nu (eventually) - what's the difference in 15mm? So you get the advantage of having a core of horse archers, and then build up from there. I'm going from Saka to Palmyran in one easy swing

Just my views.

I agree with everything above, but would add once you have your basic LH/Cav, you could branch out use either Cats or Armoured Cav Lancers giving you a load more armies you could field add some elephants and you can field another couple. So yes a basic LH/Cav army is not only fun but allows you to field many different armies.
Dave

[BlackPrince]

Hi Carlos,

Can ask what does your Timurid army list look like and how successful has it been?

Keith

[Scrumpy]

Carlos have you thought about using elephants in your Timurids to break knights?

Keith

Yes, I forgot to mention I always use the elephants - they are good for a laugh. So far I've had 3 games w/ the Timurids. In one the elephants pinned a group of Hungarian Knights forcing them to charge them and dying. In another they were awesome creating a big gap against an Ottoman army by bulldozing through Sipahis. In the third game they beat the knights in front of them but I took some punishment from not being able to catch ALL the knights. Ideally you need more than 2*2 elephants as that only covers 1 BG of 4 knights in terms of frontage. I guess they are good in their book but of course you need to support them w/ generals and rear support if possible as knights usually come into elephants re-rolling 1s and 2s. Even w/ less dice and a PoA down they can prove tricky.

The Knights would not have to charge you as they would be disordered by the elephants.

[Huaxtec15mm]

I appreciate the replies. I will be trying out Ilkhanids and Mamluks as soon as I get the Companion Book. Timurids sound good too.

Cheers.