Cavalry of the middle of the 18th century

[Cronos09]

I see the next types of cavalry e.g. for the battles of the Seven Years War.
1) Cuirassiers - heavy cavalry: Determined Horse, Above Average or Superior, Impact Mounted, Pistol (Melee), Armour. They can charge an infantry unit without the square formation from its front with a high probability of winning.

Charge an infantry unit in the square formation - almost without winning result


2) Dragoons - medium cavalry: Horse, Average or Above Average, Pistol (Impact), Pistol (Melee). They do not have a big chance of winnig during the impact phase when charging from the front of an infantry unit.

Forming a square formation gives the unit a full protection from dragoon charging.

The Dragoons also have the Mount/Dismount possibility, though I am not sure if it is necessary in this historical period.

3) Hussars - 'non-light light cavalry': Cavalry, Average or Above Average, Carbine, Pistol (Melee). They charge infantry like Dragoons.

I give them a free angle of 90 degrees instead of 45. It increases their maneuverability. But the Hussars can only charge an enemy unit at an angle of no more than 45 degrees from their initial position during one turn.

The textures are made by Odenathus.

Light cavalry also has a place to be - like Croats in the Austrian army etc.

[gribol]

In my oppinion, without very deep analysis, you are on the good way to break the balance of the game.
Cavalry looks to be overpowered.

[Cronos09]

In my oppinion, without very deep analysis, you are on the good way to break the balance of the game.
Cavalry looks to be overpowered.

As far as I understand, your statement refers only to the 'super-maneuverability' of the hussars. Since I have weakened the cavalry compared to MP Kolin (as we discussed it earlier):
1) only cuirassiers have a high chance of charging steady infantry from its front;
2) dragoons and hussars have a small chance of winning only during the impact phase of charging of steady infantry from its front.
If you mean the chance numbers of winning during the impact and melee phases for cavalry combat against infantry, please, suggest concrete values. At the same time I would like players to have a motivation to use the square formations in my scenario.

[smjohnso77]

I like it. I have come to really enjoy the cavalry and square rules in Kolin. You really have to e mindful of where the enemy cavalry is. In many games, infantry just does not need to be mindful of cavalry unless it is a flank threat. I think this looks fun. Keeping things balanced is the tough part. Are you working on some more battles or a whole campaign of the war?

[gribol]

As far as I understand, your statement refers only to the 'super-maneuverability' of the hussars. Since I have weakened the cavalry compared to MP Kolin (as we discussed it earlier):
1) only cuirassiers have a high chance of charging steady infantry from its front;
2) dragoons and hussars have a small chance of winning only during the impact phase of charging of steady infantry from its front.
If you mean the chance numbers of winning during the impact and melee phases for cavalry combat against infantry, please, suggest concrete values. At the same time I would like players to have a motivation to use the square formations in my scenario.

ad1) It will be depending, how much Cuirassiers will be in the game. If too much, they will overrun inflantry line.
Most shocking was to me when i see the impact value (81%). That means, that almost all charge will ends with D/F and breaking inflantry line next turn.
Its hard for me to suggest concrete values, because i dont have got experience in modding (programming, etc). Maybe if it will be about 50-60% it can be better?
And again - it must be compared with oher in game factors (how much Kuirassiers we have, how fast runs inflantry afrer meele fight, how big will be domino effect to the nxt inflantry units in the line ....)

- super maneuverability of the hussars - maybe i am too old to like some drastical changes at the beginning and i say that you must be careful with some moves.
When cavalry have got 90* free turn and can move 4 squares to the sides, it is for me a big change in cavalry behaviour and it shoud be tested.
Maybe i will to say, that i am not a big enthusiast for this particular change, but i dont say too, that it cant works.

I was a poor student, but i remember most often answer that was present in my University, and i think that is a good quote in this topic:
"-It is a good idea?
- Its depends"

[Cronos09]

ad1) It will be depending, how much Cuirassiers will be in the game. If too much, they will overrun inflantry line.
Most shocking was to me when i see the impact value (81%). That means, that almost all charge will ends with D/F and breaking inflantry line next turn.
Its hard for me to suggest concrete values, because i dont have got experience in modding (programming, etc). Maybe if it will be about 50-60% it can be better?
And again - it must be compared with oher in game factors (how much Kuirassiers we have, how fast runs inflantry afrer meele fight, how big will be domino effect to the nxt inflantry units in the line ....)

- super maneuverability of the hussars - maybe i am too old to like some drastical changes at the beginning and i say that you must be careful with some moves.
When cavalry have got 90* free turn and can move 4 squares to the sides, it is for me a big change in cavalry behaviour and it shoud be tested.
Maybe i will to say, that i am not a big enthusiast for this particular change, but i dont say too, that it cant works.

If you keep to historical reality, cuirassiers will not be much - about a third of all cavalry.
The impact value of cuirassier charge vs an enemy infantry with light guns gives much less chance of success. So I do not see the necessity to change something in it.



Super maneuverability of the hussars - I will change it, as this would be superior to light cavalry maneuver in the forward hemisphere.

[Athos1660]

I guess the balance between cavalry and infantry will also depend on the firepower given to infantry (and guns), won't it ?

[SnuggleBunnies]

I have to agree that Curassier charge value is far too strong. All the reading I've done suggests that cavalry generally had little chance to overrun Steady infantry in a frontal charge. To be fair, the most detailed reading I've done on the subject is Rory Muir's excellent Tactics and the Experience of Battle in the Age of Napoleon, which is after this period. Still, 18th century warfare was not generally known for massed cavalry charges in the middle of the line, right? If this was a skirmish module, the best move for everyone would be to buy a bunch of heavy cavalry and plunk it in the middle of the line. I would say a 30-40% win chance seems better - historically speaking, maybe too high still, but a good balance, as if the cavalry bounces the infantry gets another chance to shoot and Disrupt.

[Veles]

I agree with Snuggles. The middle of the XVIII century is a time of the decline of heavy cavalry nad cavalry in general, cuirassiers (and other cav) had their renaissance in the Napoleonic Era but that's a couple of decades later.
Still, if cuirassiers would catch infantry regiment in the open and unprepared they still could probably pool off a successful frontal charge but that rarely ever happened.
At the same time, I think that not putting your infantry in a square in advance should be punished severely enough to make it worth it. We have to remember that actually many commanders considered forming squares to be useless most of the time since when there was a need to form it was generally already too late to do it. A way to emphasize it is to make cavalry good enough in the frontal engagement that it becomes important to anticipate enemies' cavalry charges.


As for the hussars, I think that at the time they should mostly operate as light cavalry. The idea of using hussars as "line cavalry" became common a bit later.

One more thing. What about Uhlans? Shouldn't they be included?

[Cronos09]

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts about this subject.
First, I have to say that I would like to make one or two MP historical battles of the Seven Years War 1756-1763 (first of all it is Leuthen 1757). Secondly, I am going to add the General mod there. Therefore, using the example of the TYW MP module, I want to finally decide on what I would like to see in the General mod. And then just I will add scripts to the created historical battles. Also for these purposes I would like to have a cavalry system.
I must agree with SnuggleBunnies that the cavalry frontal charge on the undisturbed infantry was rarely successful at that time. But to justify using the square formation (a feature which I really want to use) I make Сuirassiers powerful. I will also try to use the square to protect the Disrupted infantry from cavalry charges. And, if I get an acceptable result (what I'm not very sure about), then I will change the emphasis in the use of a square and parameters of the Cuirassier charge.
About the decline of cavalry in the middle of the 18th century - I cannot agree. Frederick the Great reformed the Prussian cavalry after the 1st Silesian War, transforming it into a very effective instrument of war. Convinced of the effectiveness of the Prussian cavalry, its tactics were adopted by the opponents of Prussia in the Seven Years War. And the tactics of the cavalry of the Napoleonic wars was already developed on the basis of Frederick's cavalry instructions (Reglement).
About hussars - yes, they mostly operate as light cavalry at that time. I will think about their parameters.

[Cronos09]

Better late than never
I refuse to use the infantry square formation for the 18th century battles, since this formation was not often used in battle at that time.
А cavalry charge on an undisrupted infantry front was often repelled by rifle fire and canister shot from regimental artillery. So in the middle of the XVIII century, the cavalry was ordered not to charge the enemy infantry standing firmly in place. Attacks were made on a reforming, advancing or retreating enemy, whose ranks were upset.
Thus I suggest to use random reducing bayonet percentage (normal 100%):
1) after move/fallback 50-75%%
2) after turning 75-85%%
These values are saved during the next enemy turn, when enemy cavalry has 30-50%% of successful frontal charge. It's calculated like this:
Impact for Cuirassiers (heavy cavalry) - PoA + (100%(Impact Mounted) - random bayonet %) + (100 (Cavalry vs Infantry) - random bayonet %),
Impact for Dragoons (medium cavalry) - PoA + (100%(Impact Pistol) - random bayonet %) + ((100 (Cavalry vs Infantry) - random bayonet %)/2)

Hussars are line demi-light cavalry. They have not impact bonuses like the Ottoman Timariot Sipahis in the original game (Carbine, Swordsmen). But thet have 18 APs and can evade enemy charges. The turning angles are as in the original.