Korsun Pocket - Objectives Achieved FAIL End OF Game???

[kverdon]

Korsun FUBAR.jpg (440.93 KiB) Viewed 1949 times

So seeing that Soviet campaigns were relatively free of the massively frustrating bugs that littered the German Campaign. I thought that I'd be safe picking up Red Storm. Well THAT was a mistate.

Things went relatively well until I hit the Korsun Pocket scenario. Objective states that you must capture the 8 victory points for encirclement by turn 15 without loosing any of the primary sites. Ok, it's turn 15, I had the 8 in the bag at the end of turn 14. I regroup on turn 15, click end and what do I get but "FAIL, End of Campaign". I reload the scenario, yep it says I have 8 for 8. The "Don't loose a primary is still a ? but I'm assuming that does not go away until end of the scenario. I've uploaded a screenshot showing the completion of all 8 of 8 of the objectives and the turn counter of 15.

I'm at a loss of why I failed the scenario when I completed the primary objectives so I open up the scenario in the editor. I'm not sure but it looks like I failed because though I achieved all the objective for "Encirclement Fail1" there is a hidden objective for "Encirclement FAIL2" it seems to hinge on the objective of taking Mironovka, also by turn 15. This is displayed as a SECONDARY objective which you are forbidden to take before being notified. Well there was NO notification given to release the blocking force to take that because THAT does not happen until turn 16. Nor was there ANY indication that this hex was ever required for victory. I think that the problem is you won't get notified until you complete "Encirclement 1" which you are given 15 turns to accomplish and then "Encirclement 2" ALSO has a time limit of 15 turns so by the time you get notified it is too late to take Mirnovka.

This is massively frustrating. This is a huge scenario that take hours to complete and you get 2-3 hours in an BOOM game over for no apparent reason. Is it REALLY too much to ask you adequately test these campaigns before you shove them out the door? This should have NEVER gotten past Q/A. The problem with your testing appears to be 2 fold. 1. There is never enough time or resources allocated to the testing of the DLC, even when issues are raised by the testers, the issues are ignored because the time / resources have been exhausted. This is a classic failure of project management. 2. The second failure is that you tend to use the same experienced group for testing over and over. They are not only experts at the game but they likely replay the scenarios over and over to the point they know the objective by heart so for example they KNOW that you need to take Mironovka to succeed but a new player has no chance. This group would be adequate for initial bug testing but then there should be a secondary testing with outside, new testers. What ends up happening is that the secondary testing group turns out to be the paying public who purchase the game in good faith and get shafted and wind up doing the work, for free.

[terminator]

sov3_05_Korsun_Pocket(11).jpg (54.98 KiB) Viewed 1940 times

[kverdon]

Uh, yes that was mentioned BUT it is implied you do that After the blocking force is released as it is labeled as a secondary victory location that is supposed to be off limits until the primaries are completed. Furthermore if this hex is a primary victory point location, why is not labeled as such and highlighted as such? Why is there not a primary objective of “Capture Northern Supply Hex by Turn 15” 0/1?

Let’s say you, like I did, start the scenario one day, play a few turns and then come back to it a day later. You check the victory conditions, click on the primaries to remind you what you need to do and you get Nada to inform you you need the supply heX.

[terminator]

Maybe the Savegame Turn 15(screenshot) ?

[kverdon]

Screenshot was included in the original post.

Here also is a screenshot of the required hex clearly designated as a secondary victory location.

Korsun FUBAR 2.jpg (241.72 KiB) Viewed 1919 times

[terminator]

The Savegame Turn 15 ?

PS: thank you I have a nice camouflage now

[kverdon]

I can upload the save game when I get back from vacation. It’s hardly necessary. This is just an issue of poor scenario design and testing. Once you know what is required it should work. The issue is not in the execution of the objectives but in how they are outlined and labeled.

[terminator]

Looks like you didn’t start the scenario very well when you lost the secondary onjective. Sometimes you have to start a scenario over, you can’t win the first time every time.

We can’t see well on your screenshot, but there could be two places where German supply could pass (?)

[kverdon]

Yes NOW I see what the person that developed the scenario was aiming for. You have to cut supply between the hex I showed above and the hex in the lower SW. Outside of the obscure reference in briefing, how exactly was I to figure out what they were thinking of? Again WHY is there not a entry in the Victory Conditions window that includes this victory condition? Like I said, when I came back to the scenario, a day later to continue it. I clicked on the Victory Condition window and it is not clearly listed. This gets back to the need for secondary testing. Once the primary testers know objectives by heart then they loose part of their objectivity in terms of being able to test. I would heartily recommend 2 changes to this scenario.

1. As part of the briefing, make it a point to highlight that you need to disrupt the supply between Here (focus on hex #1) and Here (focus on Hex #2).
2. Include the Victory Condition as a separate victory condition in the listed objectives. such as:
"Encircle the units around Korsun in 15 turns 0/8"
"Cut Supply to Korsun between Oman and MIronovka" 0/1

That would make it MUCH easier for a player to clearly understand the objectives and be able to clearly recall them when returning to the scenario from a break. It would also have the added benefit of helping the player in understanding why they failed.

Yes, I played the scenario a few times but was not terribly concerned about the secondary victory condition, often times I complete them other times not. It's not a big deal. I failed it because I did not encounter 6 tanks. Had I understood the victory conditions, I might have encountered another AFV and completed it.

I do not agree with your premise that a scenario should be winnable on the first try. If it is well designed and the objectives are clearly marked out it should be doable. What is often the failing of OOB scenarios is that either by design or oversight, or both, the scenario objectives are somewhat obscure which makes them more puzzle scenarios that you have to repeat multiple times until you figure out what the designer intended.

[bebro]

Uh, yes that was mentioned BUT it is implied you do that After the blocking force is released as it is labeled as a secondary victory location that is supposed to be off limits until the primaries are completed.

As of now it looks like you didn't complete the encirclement (1st primary goal) or lost one of your starting objectives (2nd primary goal/hold). So it has nothing to do with objective markers because cutting supply links can be done at various locations, it just needs to be a full encirclement.

I also don't see how it's ...

implied you do that After the blocking force is released as it is labeled as a secondary victory location

...when the description of the first primary objective named "Encircle units around Korsun in 15 turns" contains clearly what Terminator quoted:

Take marked primary objectives swiftly, and cut the supply link between Korsun and Uman. Do not seize secondary objectives near Korsun before you received updated orders!||• +10 CP, +5 turn income

[kondi754]

I also misplaced my forces before this mission during testing, so I had to restart the scenario - but this is not the fault of the person designing this mission, but my mistake in assessing the map and reading the briefing inaccurate
The description of the scenario provides all the necessary information to properly complete the task IMO

[kverdon]

Kondi - if YOU read it wrong and failed then it needs better explanation. It could definitely be made clearer. Yes, once you know in hindsight what is resulted you can find it in the briefing but that more than one veteran player misread it points to it not be presented well.

[bebro]

BTW, the manual has a nice section called "turn overview". I always encourage people to follow the advice given in there regarding objectives and specifically objective desriptions.

[kverdon]

I'll tell you what, when I get back from vacation I'll take a crack at this scenario and we will then see in which one it is more clear as to the given objectives.

I am happy to report that with the proper understanding of the objectives, I was able to successfully get past turn 15.