Newbie

[warnevada]

I just started playing FOG II. I've played five games, small custom battles, and I see things that I don't understand (I am plowing through the manual) and some things that don't make sense to me.


I see units rout and I see other units retreat. The number of units routing is much larger than the number retreating, which seems backwards to me.

I have seen strange behavior on the part of a retreating unit. It retreated for several turns, then there was a message saying it rallied. It then advanced toward the combat area for two turns. Then without anything being done to it, no missile attack, no unit moving near it, it suddenly retreats again. What would cause it to do that?

I have seen an Irregular Infantry unit, described as "lightly protected", which I assume means fabric armor, attacked by three armored hoplite units and defeated all three. That doesn't make sense to me.

I have seen an archery unit, damaged in an archery duel, meleed by two spear units and routed them both. Since archery units are basically unarmored and have limited melee weapons for self defense, it makes no sense that they could stand up to spear units.

Can someone help me understand what's going on?

[Ludendorf]

Sounds like freakishly bad results for the hoplites. Were they flanked or was it really three on one? Were the irregulars in forest or on rough ground? Normally, that match up does mean a trouncing. Same for your massed archers; even on rough ground I would expect them to lose to the spear units.

[Karvon]

When playing against the AI, light foot may sometimes retreat due to casualties, low ammo, threatening enemy or AI plan. They sometimes turn around and advance to skirmish further at the AI's whim.

Rallying is possible for units which are disrupted, fragmented or routed, so a disrupted light foot unit might retreat and then rally from disruption, making it more likely to resume skirmishing.

Irregular medium foot could possibly defeat three armored hopolites if the battle took place in rough or difficult terrain where the hopolites are much less effective. In the open, that is far less likely, but not impossible.

With the archery unit, that would really depend on what sort it was: massed bow, Immortals, light bow, Assyrian style medium foot, and the terrain. If a medium foot bow fought a pair of spears in difficult terrain, it might win.

[SnuggleBunnies]

Screenshots would allow us to give you more concrete information - I suspect the Irregulars/Archers were in or behind some kind of terrain feature that inhibits heavy foot. I can recommend that you turn on Detailed ToolTips, and if you use the Combat Reports, set those to detailed as well. That will give you the breakdown of all of the combat calculations.

[SimonLancaster]

Yes, check the ground on which units are fighting. Rough ground and forests give any medium or irregular infantry an advantage over heavy infantry!

Look out for streams, marshes, forests and rough ground.

[warnevada]

The archers were massed bows on a hill, the spearmen were attacking uphill.

To the best of my recollection the irregular infantry was on clear terrain, the the three hoplites attacked in a line, no flanking.

I will turn on the detail. At this point, it's so much gibberish to me since I don't understand what it's telling me.

[warnevada]

A question: how do you reassign units to leaders? All I found in the manual was that it can only be done during the deployment phase, but not how to do it.

[SimonLancaster]

Troops will get extra POA if on a hill.. depends on how big the hill as to how much of a bonus you will get.

Hover over a unit and I think the small general icon will be there. Just click on it to add a general to your unit. You can add 4 generals to units in the deployment phase.

Just trial and error. You will get used to everything as you play more!

[76mm]

Hover over a unit and I think the small general icon will be there. Just click on it to add a general to your unit. You can add 4 generals to units in the deployment phase.

You can only reassign leaders to units in the same group, so before moving a leader you might need to add the unit to the leader's current group.

[Karvon]

Your CinC can be assigned go any unit in any command, a very useful point to remember when creating commands and distributing your generals. For example the CinC's command might be your reserve group, but you can deploy him into a frontline command for morale and combat bonuses, if needed.

[warnevada]

First, thank you for taking the time to help me along.

I am aware of how to move leaders around, but supposedly you can reassign units to different leaders. For example, one leader's command has 14 units, another's has 8 units. You want to make the commands more equal in size by transferring units from the 14 group to the 8 group. I haven't found how to do that.

[tomlowshang]

You can only do it during deployment. Select the unit you want to move. Right click on a unit in the destination formation. One of the options in the popup transfers the selected unit.

[vakarr]

To learn more about generals, I suggest watching this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8O6s-LRcyU&t=32s

I think all your examples are comparing armour. Actually the morale of the unit is more important than the armour, and a unit with average morale and "armoured" may lose to a unit that has veteran status/is Superior that is merely "protected". The unit state - Steady, Disrupted, or Fragmented - is VERY important. Also as had been said, the terrain is important. Watch this video to learn how to make terrain work for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtZMhS5Wnk0&t=101s If you find that you can't charge a unit for no apparent reason, watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEK7W1AfdzE&t=192s To find out more about Massed Archers, watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybgnpPhiX4M&t=1188s

[warnevada]

Thank you for all your help. This game is a lot more complex than I expected. I'm going to devote a lot more time to studying it. I had played FOG I, which is pretty simple and straightforward and I expected FOG II to be a prettied up version of it.

[rbodleyscott]

Thank you for all your help. This game is a lot more complex than I expected. I'm going to devote a lot more time to studying it. I had played FOG I, which is pretty simple and straightforward and I expected FOG II to be a prettied up version of it.

No. FOG1 was developed from the tabletop rules by a different studio (Hexwar). As Hexwar were not the originators of the tabletop game, FOG1 took a literalistic approach to translating the rules to the computer, even to the point of using the same dice system for combat. (Which was a necessary evil in the tabletop game, but does make some "impossible" outcomes possible)

FOG2 has been developed entirely separately from the tabletop rules, not from FOG1. As co-author of the tabletop rules, I felt able to make a less literal translation of the tabletop rules, addressing some of the issues that we were unable to address in the tabletop game because of the need to keep the mechanisms manually resolvable.

[MarkShot]

Warneveda,

You raise many good questions. I haven't played in a while.

I have been playing RTW2/DEI. The combat here + terrain go much further than TW games; even the great overhaul mods like RS3, EB, and DEI.

I thought I would actually hate this game as I hate TBS combat, but I love this game. I have never seen TBS combat done with a better UI and faster/smoother flow.

When I started there were 2 players with invaluable insights:

Mike Chung

Chris Webber

I think on these forums like:

MikeC81

Vakarr

YouTube for Sure (check out their videos)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKmERO ... oQLlQULhPg - Michael Chung

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_rh6B ... _lkMZQ7cxA - Christopher Webber

Both have really looked carefully at game play.

---

In regards to more breaking than retreating ... The game models panic ripples. I think this is called a "triggered cohesion check". Most scholars tend to agree ancient combat was very morale based. Nothing was more devastating than seeing your friends and neighbors running for their lives. So, if you can crack a phalanx or legion unit in the middle of a stressed line, LOOK OUT!!!

* With regards to rating software, I am a retired CTO (Chief Technology Officer) and do have the credentials. This game is a gem of UI design and play/fun.

[warnevada]

I've now played about a dozen Quick Battles trying to learn the game. I've noticed that sometimes the player's starting manpower strength is weaker and sometimes stronger than the AI's. Sometimes the difference is substantial, several thousand troops. I'm basing this observation strictly on open battles. Is this totally random or is there something going on to determine these starting strengths?

[Paul59]

I've now played about a dozen Quick Battles trying to learn the game. I've noticed that sometimes the player's starting manpower strength is weaker and sometimes stronger than the AI's. Sometimes the difference is substantial, several thousand troops. I'm basing this observation strictly on open battles. Is this totally random or is there something going on to determine these starting strengths?

In Quick battles, just like normal Custom battles, the army strengths are decided by the total points value of the two sides. Each unit in the game has been assigned a points value depending upon it's type, quality and capabilities. High quality units with high levels of armour and powerful weapons are worth far more points than poor quality units with mediocre weaponry. So an army with lots of high quality units will have far less men than an equal points army that has many poor quality units.

Also, cavalry units normally only have half the number of men that an infantry unit has, or in many cases even less. So a cavalry army will also have far less men than an equal points infantry army.

The number of men in an army is irrelevant really, it's the points values that count.

[warnevada]

So what I think you're saying is both sides start with the same number of points. A further question: does the difficulty level affect the starting point relationship?

[Paul59]

So what I think you're saying is both sides start with the same number of points. A further question: does the difficulty level affect the starting point relationship?

The difficulty level directly affects the points available to the player. In general, at the lower levels of difficulty the points are roughly even, but as the difficulty level rises the player gets fewer points for his/her army.

So for instance, for a medium size battle the AI always gets 1200 points, but;

At Centurion level the player gets 1197 points. The player's units also get a slight quality boost, and the AI units get a slight downgrade.

At Tribune level the player still gets 1197 points, but the unit qualities are standard for both sides.

At Legate level the player gets 1083.

At Governor level the player gets 969.

At Emperor level the player only gets 855.

And at Deity level the player still gets 855, but his units get a slight quality downgrade and the AIs units get a slight quality boost.

You can see what the points levels are yourself for the other size battles by opening the Custom Battle creation screen, and then clicking on the "Hiding Advanced Options" button.