Kommandant K

[scorehouse]

in the 39, i'm always capturing supply depots but the game doesn't tell me what i've captured? what am i missing?

[Kerensky]

in the 39, i'm always capturing supply depots but the game doesn't tell me what i've captured? what am i missing?

It says 'captured French tank depot'

So check your inventory of capture equipment, specifically tanks. In this case, it's adding really nice Char B captured stock. But only in very small increments of (5)

[scorehouse]

go large or go home! thanks that explains it....dammit

[Kerensky]

Just gotta find more caches, need at least (10) to form a full unit, but you will always need extra spare parts for captured equipment, because if you run out, you can't repair them anymore.

Making enemy units surrender also gives captured stock, but finding a Char B in 1939 on the field is extremely rare...

[scorehouse]

check out my Bzura post? thanks....captured tanks don't have stamina? how many points do you need in ( ) to make them worthwhile?

[KesaAnna]

check out my Bzura post? thanks....captured tanks don't have stamina? how many points do you need in ( ) to make them worthwhile?

Well , just my two cents , but if the stock falls below 20 , I switch to something else.

I don't want to get into a situation where a tank unit with three stars , that has been with me since Seville , gets destroyed because I sent it forward into battle again with only five , or four , strength points , because there were no replacements.

Or , conversely , having to park my veteran tank unit after turn 6 , in an 18 turn scenario , for the same above reasons.

In Spain , Russian tanks and Trubia's were so plentiful , and your units were inexperienced anyway , so , while I still kept to the must - have - at - least - 20 - rule , I could afford to be a lot more liberal and spendthrift in handing out captured equipment and in using it up.

As Kerensky seemed to indicate , in DLC '39 though , French Souma's and Char B's are not so easy to come by.

French Souma's and Char B's seem to be the 1939 rough equivalent of Tigers and King Tigers . Jeez , the Char B , especially , seems to be practically a moving concrete pillbox.

So , if given more than 20 of either one , and especially the Char B , I give it to one of my veteran tank units.

Also , checking my remaining stocks becomes , like checking tomorrow's weather forecast , a routine periodic habit.

Funny things happen on the way to victory , and you don't want to mis - percieve , or mis - remember , that you have 15 Char B's remaining in stock , when you actually only have 5 in stock.

[scorehouse]

you mean the number by the Tank is a (20) to start?

[scorehouse]

in the 39 when do the first Chars become available? and is that via supply depot/Flag captures or forcing them to surrender thanks

[adiekmann]

in the 39 when do the first Chars become available? and is that via supply depot/Flag captures or forcing them to surrender thanks

First available? As Kerensky explained above, you earn/win them 5 at a time over the course of several scenarios by capturing certain hexes. And as another poster said it, you need at least ten to use it and I still wouldn't because when it take loses to its strength during a battle, you'll have nothing to replace those losses with!

I don't remember by when you have significant numbers to make it practical to deploy. I remember that I had one of my veteran tanks using the Char in Bzura though...

So, I think some of your confusion might be explained by what I write next.

Most of the time, you receive a message that says something like, "You just captured a valuable cache of enemy equipment." But no picture or mention of what it is pops up. To find out what it was, hit the "B" key to bring up the purchase screen. Scroll through to the captured units section. If you don't want to check ART, TANK, etc separately, you can select "ALL" at the top right and then scroll down to the "captured" section on the bottom. There you will see if anything interesting is displayed and how many you have of it.

Now, lets say you already have a Char tank and you want to know how many "extras" you have of it to use to replace combat loses, you still need to look in the purchase screen, not upgrade screen.

If you see in the purchase screen that you only have two more, watch out! You might want to change it to something else before you start the mission.

Hope this clarifies things for you.

[scorehouse]

thanks!

[Scrapulous]

you mean the number by the Tank is a (20) to start?

That number corresponds to unit strength points. It's why you need 10 minimum to form a unit from that equipment. Another way of thinking of it is that a T-26 unit with a strength of 10 represents 10 individual tanks. Then that (20) by the T-26 in your purchase screen represents a number of tanks available to you. You consume those by forming units or reinforcing units (there is no repair of destroyed tanks - unless maybe you are playing on the lowest difficulty and capitalizing on the "free replenishment at the end of a mission" feature, which works regardless of how many you have in your stock).

in the 39 when do the first Chars become available? and is that via supply depot/Flag captures or forcing them to surrender thanks

I salvaged my first five from the depot in Sarreguemines, but as said, it was only 5, so not yet enough to form a unit.

I saw my first wild Char B1 ("char" is just the french word for "tank," like Italian "carro" ) in the Warndt Forest scenario, where they appear in the southeast near the optional objective as part of the reinforcement waves. The reinforcements that appear in the southwest have (as I remember) every other French tank type of the time, including Somua S35s. I made sure to capture as many as I could from both spawns. You also can get 5 more salvage in Warndt Forest.

Because of this, I wasn't able to field a Char B1 of my own until Orenthal. But, I will say this: while I normally am similar to KesaAnna in that I won't rely on equipment with fewer than 20 units in reserve, I make an exception for the Char B1. In 1939, it's a rare threat that can kill a B1. I loaded mine with a Provocateur hero who redirected attacks toward the B1, and still nothing dented it. I would without hesitation use my only 10 units of a Char B1 to form a unit and deploy it on the front lines in 1939. It's a fantastic tank for its time.

[Kerensky]

It's a fantastic tank for its time.

That is definitely the historical consensus of the French tanks, especially the Char B.
They just didn't quite use them effectively. More spread out as infantry supporting units than condensed together in breakthrough Panzer Divisions.

[George_Parr]

I think the consensus is somewhat wrong about that stuff though. I used to think they were really good, then I looked past armor and gun. Those tanks looked good on paper, but sadly paper doesn't fight, tank-crews in their tanks do.

The reasons the Germans succeeded even with tanks that were weaker on paper, were superior doctrin (early on), better trained crews, and tanks that actually were suitable to be operated by their crews and work as a unit.
French tanks had horrendous communication between the tanks of a unit and a lack of proper communication-system inside the tank. They also had way too many two-men tanks, horrendous vision for driver and commander, and most importantly only a one-man turret even on their large tanks. A one-man turret ruins the fighting capability of any tank (compared to its own potential).

With a one-man turret, the commander has to navigate the tank, keep watch on its surroundings, load the gun, aim and fire the gun, track the shot, give orders to the crew and, if unit-leader, also keep in touch with the other tanks. Much of that is mutually exclusive. You can't aim and fire the gun and give a proper tracking of the shot at the same time. You can't load the gun and keep watch on the surroundings or order the crew around either (especially not with no internal radio). The french tanks would have been much better if they hadn't saddled one person with three different jobs, made even harder by giving the commander barely any vision when in his turret. Give the tanks a proper turret and a dedicated gunner and loader, and they would have been really good, maybe great even. But without them they are much weaker than they looked. For every Captain Bilotte you get a ton of tanks that did squat. Compare that to the German tanks, which early on were all about functioning as a unit, with proper communication inside and between the tanks, a three-men-turret with clearly defined roles, proper vision and relatively comfortable interior. All things that helped them punch above what the design suggested on paper. One-on-one, these things might not matter as much, but when fighting battles, you aren't fighting one-on-one, you have a fight between coordinated forces. Tanks that work together to take on an enemy will have more success than those who all work mostly on their own because there is next to no communication.

The Chieftain has some very interesting videos about that on youtube, where you can see the inside of the tanks and the issues with them.

[Retributarr]

"George_Parr:" … Bravo!!!... what a "Splendidly-Accurate-Report!". Everything that you mentioned is "Absolutely-True!".

Yes!... the "French-Tanks" even though they had all of the aforementioned failing-issues that you just brought out... still... in that time-period in history were nevertheless... a very lethal-weapon that was capable to be used to deal severe destructive damage. Their moment of 'Glory' wouldn't last for much too-long... but!... in any case... last long enough to make a definite impact on the 'War-Effort!'... and the direction that it would eventually take!.

[KesaAnna]

you mean the number by the Tank is a (20) to start?

I meant that I only put a unit in captured equipment if I have at least 20 of that unit in my stockpile.

That's my personal practice though , not a compulsory game rule .

I actually don't know how many are required to equip a unit , or even if there is such a rule ?

Maybe you can equip a unit with captured equipment when you only have 5 , or 3 ?

---

In hindsight , I'm inclined to agree with the other poster that Char B is an exception to my personal rule . That is , it would be a pretty safe bet to put a unit in Char B's when I have only 10 in the stockpile , or even just 8 in the stockpile.

In 1939 the Char B is so tough that it is extremely rare for that unit to lose 3 or 4 strength points in a single combat , or even in an entire scenario.

Unless it is surrounded by infantry in close terrain , or fighting another Char B , most shots just bounce off of it.

[Scrapulous]

Maybe you can equip a unit with captured equipment when you only have 5 , or 3 ?

One needs at least 10 in stockpile to form a new unit with that equipment.

I think the consensus is somewhat wrong about that stuff though. I used to think they were really good, then I looked past armor and gun. Those tanks looked good on paper, but sadly paper doesn't fight, tank-crews in their tanks do.

I am professionally obliged to agree with this. On the other hand, this isn't the most egregious departure from reality that the Panzer General model of game makes: armor and infantry fighting in totally separate, mutually exclusive formations, artillery and other support being completely discreet from other formations, no organic, combined arms, etc. At some level I just have to suspend my disbelief.

[Retributarr]

Char B1:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Char_B1

The Char B1

The Char B1 was a French heavy tank manufactured before World War II.

The Char B1 was a specialised break-through vehicle, originally conceived as a self-propelled gun with a 75 mm howitzer in the hull; later a 47 mm gun in a turret was added, to allow it to function also as a Char de Bataille, a "battle tank" fighting enemy armour, equipping the armoured divisions of the Infantry Arm.

Although a second up-armoured version, the Char B1 "ter", was developed, only two prototypes were built.

Among the most powerfully armed and armoured tanks of its day, the type was very effective in direct confrontations with German armour in 1940 during the Battle of France, but slow speed and high fuel consumption made it ill-adapted to the war of movement then being fought. After the defeat of France, captured Char B1 (bis) would be used by Germany, with some rebuilt as flamethrowers, Munitionspanzer, or mechanised artillery.


A 10.5 cm leFH18/3 (Sf) auf Geschützwagen B-2(f). It is equipped with the 10.5 cm leFH 18 light howitzer and lacks the 75mm hull gun on the original Char B1.

The Char B1 was conceived by Jean Baptiste Eugène Estienne, for him... It had to be a "Battle Tank" that would be able to accomplish a breakthrough of the enemy line by destroying fortifications, gun emplacements and opposing tanks.

In direct meetings with German tanks the Char B1 usually had the better of it, sometimes spectacularly so as when on 16 May a single tank, Eure (commanded by Captain Pierre Billotte), frontally attacked and destroyed thirteen German tanks lying in ambush in Stonne, all of them Panzer IIIs and Panzer IVs, in the course of a few minutes.[3] The tank safely returned despite being hit 140 times.

[Scrapulous]

Retributarr: Take a look at this video, by the fellow that George_Parr recommended above. He climbs around inside the Char B1 bis and points out some difficulties that the crew would have had operating the vehicle. He does this for many tank types and discusses the difficulties of a one-man turret versus German three-man turrets. It's illuminating!

[Retributarr]

Retributarr: Take a look at this video, by the fellow that George_Parr recommended above. He climbs around inside the Char B1 bis and points out some difficulties that the crew would have had operating the vehicle. He does this for many tank types and discusses the difficulties of a one-man turret versus German three-man turrets. It's illuminating!

I know what the problems and limitations of the "Char-B1" are. I have already acknowledged that by stating just so in George Parr's commentary... a few postings back.

In any case I also stated that besides agreeing about the failings of the "Char-B1"... it still never-the-less was a 'Lethal-Piece-Of-Weaponry" despite its deficiencies.

[Scrapulous]

Retributarr: Take a look at this video, by the fellow that George_Parr recommended above. He climbs around inside the Char B1 bis and points out some difficulties that the crew would have had operating the vehicle. He does this for many tank types and discusses the difficulties of a one-man turret versus German three-man turrets. It's illuminating!

I know what the problems and limitations of the "Char-B1" are. I have already acknowledged that by stating just so in George Parr's commentary... a few postings back.

In any case I also stated that besides agreeing about the failings of the "Char-B1"... it still never-the-less was a 'Lethal-Piece-Of-Weaponry" despite its deficiencies.

My mistake. I hope I didn't offend. I think the video is pretty cool regardless.