Iberian lack superior units

[miki]

Hi

Gauls, Britons, Galatians, Dacians, Germanic tribes... All of them have superior warband units (heavy and/or medium) in their lists. But there is not a single superior unit in the three iberian lists (Iberian, Celtiberians and Lusitanians) and not even the Sertorian list. Neither heavies not mediums (like the Samnites).

I would like to know the reasons of these lists having no superior units, thank you.

[kronenblatt]

Hi

Gauls, Britons, Galatians, Dacians, Germanic tribes... All of them have superior warband units (heavy and/or medium) in their lists. But there is not a single superior unit in the three iberian lists (Iberian, Celtiberians and Lusitanians) and not even the Sertorian list. Neither heavies not mediums (like the Samnites).

I would like to know the reasons of these lists having no superior units, thank you.

Roman Legionaries in the Spanish (Sertorius) 80-70 BC army list is superior though. Should the other three army lists have superior units, in your mind, and why should they? (Maybe their armies were built more on numbers and quantity than quality, at least the foot units, because the Noble Cavalry is superior.)

[miki]

Iberian people were warrior societies as celts and germans, etc.. The Sertorius list is anecdotal. Well, the conquest of Iberia lasted centuries and lots of roman armies where destroyed in the process. My feel is that they must have some superior -infantry- units as the other lists but, what I really would like to know is why some lists get superior infantry units and other "similar" lists do not.

[miki]

Well, the Iberians were various warrior tribes similar in many respects to the Celts (Celtiberians were in fact a mix of iberian and celts) although they had their own treats that differentiated them from other ancient peoples. On a military level I want to emphasize that they served as famous mercenaries for centuries in the western Mediterranean, and even came to fight on Greek soil. They fought in Sicily and on African soil on various sides.

They were part of Hannibal's army, becoming almost half of his troops in Italy. In Cannas Hannibal arranged them on the battle line interspersed with the Gauls, who he knew would yield to Roman pressure, to strengthen their lines. Until the end of the war Iberian contingents served both under Carthage and Rome. By the way, much of the Hispanic panoply was copied and used by the Romans, such as the famous gladius hispaniensis.

After the Second Punic War, the conquest of Hispania began, which did not end until the era of Augustus. There were several centuries of conquest and Romanization, where the Iberian armies stood up in sieges, skirmishes as well as in pitched battles . The Roman armies suffered many defeats during the conquest. Iberian units were sometimes directly reformed as cohorts in the Roman army, especially during the sertorian wars.

I think these facts justify adding some superior infantry units to the iberian lists, equaling them to most other lists of ancient peoples conquered by Rome. There are several obscure lists in the game that do have superior units, and that's less justified than their absence in the Iberian lists. I don't know the criteria adopted by the designers to give superior units to some lists. Sometimes it is obvious that renowned elite units existed, but in other cases it seems more the result of clichés, game design, or seeking multiplayer balance rather than historical rigor.

On the other hand, I think it's possible that adding higher quality units to the Hispanic lists could turn them into elite armies, perhaps unbalancing the game, I don't know.

[Cunningcairn]

Well, the Iberians were various warrior tribes similar in many respects to the Celts (Celtiberians were in fact a mix of iberian and celts) although they had their own treats that differentiated them from other ancient peoples. On a military level I want to emphasize that they served as famous mercenaries for centuries in the western Mediterranean, and even came to fight on Greek soil. They fought in Sicily and on African soil on various sides.

They were part of Hannibal's army, becoming almost half of his troops in Italy. In Cannas Hannibal arranged them on the battle line interspersed with the Gauls, who he knew would yield to Roman pressure, to strengthen their lines. Until the end of the war Iberian contingents served both under Carthage and Rome. By the way, much of the Hispanic panoply was copied and used by the Romans, such as the famous gladius hispaniensis.

After the Second Punic War, the conquest of Hispania began, which did not end until the era of Augustus. There were several centuries of conquest and Romanization, where the Iberian armies stood up in sieges, skirmishes as well as in pitched battles . The Roman armies suffered many defeats during the conquest. Iberian units were sometimes directly reformed as cohorts in the Roman army, especially during the sertorian wars.

I think these facts justify adding some superior infantry units to the iberian lists, equaling them to most other lists of ancient peoples conquered by Rome. There are several obscure lists in the game that do have superior units, and that's less justified than their absence in the Iberian lists. I don't know the criteria adopted by the designers to give superior units to some lists. Sometimes it is obvious that renowned elite units existed, but in other cases it seems more the result of clichés, game design, or seeking multiplayer balance rather than historical rigor.

On the other hand, I think it's possible that adding higher quality units to the Hispanic lists could turn them into elite armies, perhaps unbalancing the game, I don't know.

Good points! From the responses I don't think anyone disagrees with you

[SnuggleBunnies]

Yes, I would be happy to see the Spanish getting some 60pt Superior, Protected Impact Foot, functionally identical to Veteran Samnites or Dailami Foot. As things stand they are generally not used too much in competitive gameplay. Not that very army has to be tournament competitive, but as noted the Spanish were a fearsome opponent historically, so it seems appropriate for them to get a boost.

[Gaznak]

I don't know if it would make the spanish lists overpowered. It might make the carthaginian+spanish allies list overpowered if they got superior impact foot in addition to their other tools. Scutari are already very handy units at average quality.

[Karvon]

I think allowing 1 unit of superior as the chieftain's guard wouldn't be out of place or overpowering. Perhaps for the Celitburn list it could be a warband, for the others a Scutari?

[miki]

Yes, I would be happy to see the Spanish getting some 60pt Superior, Protected Impact Foot, functionally identical to Veteran Samnites or Dailami Foot. As things stand they are generally not used too much in competitive gameplay. Not that very army has to be tournament competitive, but as noted the Spanish were a fearsome opponent historically, so it seems appropriate for them to get a boost.

Indeed. There's a unit already that fits perfectly that role, the lusitanian heavy caetrati (scutarii equiped with chainmail), in the lusitanian army list. I would love to see one veteran celtiberian warband also, but it doesn't exists in the game at this moment.