30 Years War team event - Round 4

[ahuyton]

As the battles of Lutzen come to a close, it is clear that the Swedish invaders have been thrown back by the steadfast Imperial forces. The game between Kiwiwarlord and Lascar is not yet decided, but whatever the result it will not alter the overall result.

As the war drags on, both sides in Germany are exhausted and looking towards a peace settlement. So now is the time for Richelieu to send forth his French troops to defeat the Spanish and perhaps grab some territory and undermine the Habsburg dynasty.

So Round four will be a large skirmish using the French and Spanish armies from the later 1640s. They are well matched, with different characteristics and will I am sure generate some exciting games. I am sure our esteemed team Captains will issue their usual helpful tips and advice to their team members.

We will start Round Four on 7th September with a deadline to complete by 1 October.

New players are welcome, just let me know asap so that I can put together the match-ups. If anyone has a particular request about an opponent, eg would like to play someone or avoid someone, let me know discretely by pm.

[Nosy_Rat]

I'd like to join, please.

[GentlemanRanker]

I increasingly feel the need to get in on this action, even if it is only to provide SnuggleBunnies with yet another walkover.

[ahuyton]

Thanks NR and GR! You are both very welcome. I should say, for NR's benefit (as Nick has played with us before), that our approach is one of friendly competition rather than that of a tournament. Having played, and lost heavily to, NR a couple of time I know that he is a pleasant opponent and will fit in well with the event. And this applies to Nick as well, I should add.

[SnuggleBunnies]

I am happy to go ahead and play the match, but I will point out that I think the Catholics will have very little chance in this matchup - the French army is Impact Foot, the Spanish wastefully expensive Later Tercios, the worst type of infantry with which to fight Impact troops.

[ahuyton]

I am happy to go ahead and play the match, but I will point out that I think the Catholics will have very little chance in this matchup - the French army is Impact Foot, the Spanish wastefully expensive Later Tercios, the worst type of infantry with which to fight Impact troops.

That is interesting. Brian and I played a couple of practice games. Admittedly he won both, but the Spanish did well in each and we found it an interesting match-up. The Spanish tercios were strong if they survived impact (I realise it is an important 'if').

[Athos1660]

I am happy to go ahead and play the match, but I will point out that I think the Catholics will have very little chance in this matchup

Both armies being catholic, it'll be a balanced match (little joke ).

I haven't played late TYW for some time but I recently noticed that Late Tercios and their 1000 men did well against French Impact foot during early 17th century. When fighting against them, I sometimes prefer, when possible, to soften them a little with several units shooting at one Tercio during a couple of turns at long rang before using Impact foot at short range. Impact is the key though... Just my 2 cent.

Sorry for interfering

Nice to read your threads, guys.

[SnuggleBunnies]

Well that hasn't been my experience, but as this is not an ultra competitive affair, I suppose I can put my theory to the test. Maybe I'll throw my own game to win the argument .

Edit: the problem isn't that the Tercios don't do alright one on one. The problem is that the Later Tercios are expensive, so you're always outnumbered in infantry units (70pts vs 42pts for the Average sorts I believe). Added to that, there is a high chance of Disrupting on Impact vs French style infantry. Firepower to soften up the French isn't a good option, because the French will have more muskets to bring to bear. Sure, Impact Foot suffer a close range shooting malus, but if you're up close you're in charge range of the Impact Foot, so it's not really that helpful. But like I said, I suppose a series of matches like this is a good test.

[Athos1660]

the problem isn't that the Tercios don't do alright one on one. The problem is that the Later Tercios are expensive, so you're always outnumbered in infantry units (70pts vs 42pts for the Average sorts I believe). Added to that, there is a high chance of Disrupting on Impact vs French style infantry.

I don't know whether the units of early 17th century and those of late TYW are strictly identical but with the former ones, I often found myself with 2 of my French Impact foot charging one late Tercio and losing (falling back or losing morale levels). Sometimes, with 3 of my French Impact Foot vs one Tercio, melees might take long !

And 1 tercio = 1000 men ; 1 French foot = 500 men. Melee is hard time for the latter (after... the impact).

Firepower to soften up the French isn't a good option, because the French will have more muskets to bring to bear.

I agree that at long range, shooting favours the French.

I never played the Tercios but I would advice to try to make them :
- approach at short range ASAP. Don't let the French shoot at you at long range.
- and/or charge ASAP one enemy unit. Don't let several units charge you at once.
My 2 cent. I am not an expert

Historically speaking, Tercios were renowned for their invincibility until the battle of Rocroi (1643) (and were defeated there not because of the enemy infantry). So you'll tell us if they get by in MP

[Athos1660]

Very important : later Tercios are immune to the effects of flank attacks (not rear). So don't be surprised when being about to charge them in flank

[ahuyton]

Athos, you are right. I found the Tercios to be quite useful though I take SB's point, and yours, about the advantages of impact foot. I think army composition will be important in this game. Any thoughts about that?

[SnuggleBunnies]

My guess is that it will be to the advantage of the French to max out their foot; even Raw Pike and Shot can ZoC lock cavalry, and the more units they can bring to bear against the Spanish infantry, the more chances they have of causing immediate Disruption by Impact. Another thing to keep in mind is that the Spanish cannot Fall Back out of melee if charged by the French, as the latter are Impact Foot. However, if the Spanish charge the French, the French can Fall Back after a lost combat (Later Tercios not being Keils) - if they maintain their cohesion doing so, they then get another chance to charge in for Impact.

The French Musketeers will prove particularly deadly - they have no pikes, so their firepower is deadly, but their Impact effect is no less dangerous than that of French Pike and Shot. They do need to be protected from cavalry of course, and are less durable in taking cohesion tests than the French Pike and Shot, but they have a better chance of causing Disruptions by fire to make up for it.

The cavalry of the two armies is evenly matched. The danger for the French in taking too much cavalry is that, even if they win the flank actions, it will be more difficult to cause auto-drops on the Later Tercios. The danger for the Spanish in investing in more cavalry is in shortening an already shorter infantry line.

[Athos1660]

Will someone dare to invest in Commanded shot in the French list ?

[KiwiWarlord]

Please remember that this is NOT a FoGII type competition where every point counts to win 1st place.
This is an Event based on the Thirty Years War of Religion.
The French entered the war to grab land off Spain and knock the power of the Habsburgs near the end of the conflict, and they fought battles where the Spanish got the better of them without 'Impact Foot'........we just have to trust the Pike & Shot game system to give us a good game refighting the conflict.
Alan puts a lot into setting up these Events for us which are NOT competitions to win gold medals, but to have fun refighting history with the Matrix Game Systems.
Maybe Athos would like to join us and give it a go ?

[Athos1660]

Sorry if I have interfered with the mood of this event

Nice to see a player interested in History and a bit less in Competition. Just like me.

As far as I am concerned, speaking of in-game units and army composition is a way of talking about historical military tactics as the FoG2/P&S system is historically accurate, not about MP competition (about which I know nothing).

This is a great event. Congrats ! Keep it up.

[ahuyton]

Sorry if I have interfered with the mood of this event

Nice to see a player interested in History and a bit less in Competition. Just like me.

As far as I am concerned, speaking of in-game units and army composition is a way of talking about historical military tactics as the FoG2/P&S system is historically accurate, not about MP competition (about which I know nothing).

This is a great event. Congrats ! Keep it up.

Your comments were very welcome Athos, and I completely share Kiwiwarlord's view as well. We want to play for fun and the historical experience.

[SnuggleBunnies]

Oh yes, don't get me wrong I will enjoy myself, and not everything needs to be the Digital League. I just enjoy discussing the balance and nuances of various army lists.

[ahuyton]

Oh yes, don't get me wrong I will enjoy myself, and not everything needs to be the Digital League. I just enjoy discussing the balance and nuances of various army lists.

That's good! We look forward to your next video of Round 4 and the challenge of playing the Spanish!

[KiwiWarlord]

I think army composition will be important in this game. Any thoughts about that?

I think that would be Top Secret Alan