The First Nemesis: Comandante Vega

[Andy2012]

I would say that OOB Burma felt more like a Panzer Corps campaign rather than SCW feeling like an OOB campaign.

And we've seen lots of complaints over base game Panzer Corps 2 scenarios being too small. Well people wanted bigger battles, even in their early war content, and now they have them. Which makes people who like the small battles feel a bit overwhelmed I guess.

Can't please everyone I'm afraid.

Yes, you are right. You cant please everyone. But I meant especially the Operation Longcloth Mission, not the whole of Burma Road. Playing the Chindits meant basically a new game with new mechanics to learn. The contrast between the vanilla campaign and this is quite high. I know, if there were no visible moves away from the core game in the Grand Campaign, people would complain, too. (In OoB, I noticed during the last beta that 'fall back and defend missions' were coming too often.) But inferior equipment and numbers combined with loss of control over infantry and re-buying my Italian aux units every mission added a lot of frustration for me during gameplay. Wargaming Panzercorps and OoB for me meant shepherding and nurturing my superior troops under my control against difficult odds. Remove the control, the nurturing, superiority in quality (not quantity) and too many elements from the original experience are gone. I still think that this DLC does a lot of things well and adds to the franchise. I just felt I should write about me being somewhat annoyed and frustrated with it at some moments.

ADDITION: Oh yeah, the AI resupplying itself from my pool of resources in harebrained ways I cannot control and thus sapping my strength and resource calculations is a constant and major drag for me. This would work a lot better if I could switch AI control off and do this myself. The only thing that keeps me playing is building my core for a hopefully less awkward Poland DLC.

[o_t_d_x]

What are your thoughts on this special enemy unit from the Spanish Civil War?

Is it interesting to see an enemy unit that is extra special in many ways? (OS, heroes, connection with characters, potential to appear more than once)
This first Nemesis was an experiment in many ways, so your thoughts on the concepts are greatly appreciated.

In future, spending a very long time on certain fronts opens up big potential for more Nemesis level enemies. I think there are more than a few historical Soviet figures who deserve this level of treatment to give them the extra special recognition they deserve.

For players who struggled against him, how do you feel about being able to 'chase him off' by throwing an airstrike at him, instead of the unit just attacking suicidally until destroyed as traditional 'attacker' AI units behave?

For those that did knock him out, do you think such a Nemesis unit should have more than 1 total 'life' in future campaigns? Or do you think putting him down once should be all it takes to remove it from all potential future appearances?

I think a nemesis should maybe come back to fight another day if you destroy him too early. You should still get a reward, though. After a certain point in the campaign however, his death should be final.

Speaking about death, this dlc is really putting me under a lot strain. The increase in difficulty from the main campaign is quite substantial and I find that several gameplay additions / decisions and units really make this a bit of a slog, sometimes.
- inferior, flimsy equipment
- being outnumbered, mostly
- AI allies being the backbone of your force and behaving sometimes counterproductively
- AI allies tapping your supply pool for useless reinforcements after attacks on tanks in the open after I told them to defend and hold
- zero per turn prestige
- really a lot of things and objectives going on for each map, feels overcrowded and the player may lose focus

At times, I this reminded me of my experience playing OoB: Burma Road, especially the Operation Longcloth mission. While I did see a lot of original thoughts there (and you cannot ignore the Chindits in that campaign), a lot of gameplay elements did not work out in practice or required knowledge on the level of a designer or hardcore tester, not a player. Altogether, this turned it into a clunky experience I was happy to get behind me. Never replayed. And while I dont want to be mean and have no experience in designing games (and appreciate you taking so much time to discuss things with us here), this DLC feels off for me. Please do experiment with new gameplay elements, but dont add too many. Panzercorps 2 worked (for me at least) around the following facts: Player has fewer units, but superior stats and exp and total control about positioning to exploit game rules, rewards are upgrades. SCW changes too many variables in that equation and has too often turned into a frustrating grind (especially early Madrid, those are just too many superior enemy units. Getting almost annihilated is no fun, even though it may have historically correct).

I quit the spanish dlc 5 min. ago and wanted to post my feelings about it, but i dont have to. You express my feelings 99% (i like big maps with lotz of things going on): "Altogether, this turned it into a clunky experience I was happy to get behind me."

Really, this is the first time ever, i dont want to play an add on for a panzer general like game. If you dont implement the "deactivate AI allies" option, i will start my grand campaign in poland and ignore spain. It feels more like work, then fun.

Another problem: The big freedom you gave to the player (heroes yes or no, using them for 1000 prestige gain (!!!!)), traits that make the game super easy, or like me, not using pos traits at all and some neg traits too) in making his own perfect difficulty with traits and dif. setting, is unbalancable, i fear. The designer never knows how the player will play the game, regarding traits and heroes, so it will be too hard or to easy for most players.

I needed a lot of play throuhgs to find the perfect vanilla campaign diff for me: FM (the highest diff. destroys my immersion bec. the germans fight like italians or polish and i dont like that "you have to encircle all the time to have enough prestige game play") no heroes allowed (they are soooo op - esp. the 2 shot p. round, 5 star, self repairing gustav - everytime you have a problem - gustav is the solution and if you have strong air def. the allies have nothing to kill it, or the 5 star maus with the +5 Attack ag. tanks, this unit alone massacred so much PER round with overrun...), no pos traits at all, no overstrenght, bad logistics and iron man. But in spain dlc this combination is very hard, because you have never enough prestige, quit often i have zero. And the enemy repairs and repairs and repairs...
Of course i could "search" for my perfect diff. in spain dlc too, but the ai allies ruin the whole dlc for me. Commandante Vega has no impact in my gaming experience: one bomb and he runs. And if not, he becomes encircled.

[o_t_d_x]

But inferior equipment and numbers combined with loss of control over infantry and re-buying my Italian aux units every mission added a lot of frustration for me during gameplay. Wargaming Panzercorps and OoB for me meant shepherding and nurturing my superior troops under my control against difficult odds. Remove the control, the nurturing, superiority in quality (not quantity) and too many elements from the original experience are gone. I still think that this DLC does a lot of things well and adds to the franchise. I just felt I should write about me being somewhat annoyed and frustrated with it at some moments.

ADDITION: Oh yeah, the AI resupplying itself from my pool of resources in harebrained ways I cannot control and thus sapping my strength and resource calculations is a constant and major drag for me. This would work a lot better if I could switch AI control off and do this myself. The only thing that keeps me playing is building my core for a hopefully less awkward Poland DLC.

100% d´accord. Best is when the designer places a super weak spanish militia in 2 vic hexes that you arent allowed to loose even once. How much would i have liked to just kill my incompetent ai allies and put at least the not as much incompetent italians into it. Because i cant tell them: move away you are wothless scum, you are not good for anything. Please die and make the hex free for real soldiers. (what irony that italians are real soldiers now...my grandpa and his comrades, at least the ones i could talk to, never had a good opinion of the italians as soldiers and they have been part of the african corps)

Why dont you give us children as victory hex guards, or snow man, i am sure they dont melt as fast as the militia dies...)

[o_t_d_x]

ADDITION: Oh yeah, the AI resupplying itself from my pool of resources in harebrained ways I cannot control and thus sapping my strength and resource calculations is a constant and major drag for me. This would work a lot better if I could switch AI control off and do this myself. The only thing that keeps me playing is building my core for a hopefully less awkward Poland DLC.

That lead to spending my prestige as fast as possible for MY units, so the ai fools get none.

And i prefer not to have a self build core in poland, then enduring this ai idiots in spain any longer.

[Andy2012]

@o_t_d_x: Glad we agree. But I wouldnt want to quit it yet and dont want to condemn the devs for their attempts at adding new layers and aspects to the game. After all, I can clearly see that a lot of work and thought went into this. I just was exhausted so often in this campaign.

[o_t_d_x]

Its what i feel: i know that others love the dlc and i dont hate the devs for what they did. They gave me panzer corps 2, for which i waited many years and its great !!! And trying new things is a good thing, but only if its only an OPTION !
Everything would have been perfect, if i could just turn the allied ai off. I dont like moving obstacles, that drain my prestige and act foolishly.

BTW: out of a business perspective: was it smart to change the major core game play in the FIRST dlc ? How many potential customers might you loose because of that ? I got the dlc for free and i am complaining, imagine how people might react, that dont like ai allies and have PAID for the dlc ? Some may stop buying dlcs, some may wait for sales only...in both cases you loose money. Experiments should always be an option, so the conservative customer might not be lost.

[Kerensky]

If I could go back and change anything, I would go back and change nothing.

I would take being overly ambitious over extra timid every time. If the first DLC didn't show the game trying to grow and expand, it sends the terrible, terrible message that what you see is what you will get for the rest of Panzer Corps 2's lifespan. Endless missions of 'Capture all Victory Hexes' forever and ever. No innovation, just a machine stamping out an endless stream of the same content.

I don't recall a bonus objective system existing in Panzer General, Panzer General 2, Panzer Corps, or any Panzer Corps DLC. Exchange commendation points for rewards was equally novel, and definitely a popular new feature. The only complaints people have over it is that they always want all the rewards, which is tough because they are tied to sometimes very difficult bonus objectives.

Named characters in briefings, a female character, and a very unusual final debriefing are all never before seen. Sure some people roll their eyes at it and just skip over it, but some people really like the immersion it brings to have era appropriate characters flavoring the content with their personal perspectives.

We massively overhyped the Nemesis, and as we see in this now very long thread, most people were hyper aware of him and focused on eliminating him ASAP. Maximum 15 OS with stacked heroes means nothing to the most determined player.

The nice thing about having so many potential DLC is that each one gets to shine in a unique way. Each is an opportunity to experiment and see what works and what doesn't.

Spanish Civil War is generating a metric ton of discussion, and that's really healthy for the game's long term viability. We want people to enjoy it and love it, but how will we know what people will love until we try? Commendation system and named characters were hugely welcomed. AI Ally was definitely mixed in reception with strong opinions for and against.

Wanna guess which features will appear and which will not in upcoming DLC 1939? I'll give you a hint, the more controversial something turned out to be, the less likely it is to reappear.

Ultimately, the Spanish Civil War was a unique conflict, which is perhaps why it's often overlooked in many games. We took a chance to give unique gameplay (non-unified command) in the one place where it fits historically. I have no regrets over that what-so-ever.

But we're always listening to feedback, and keeping it in mind for what comes next. Will Spanish Civil War ever get manual Nationalist control? Probably not. Will a mod allow for manual Nationalist control? It already exists, even before a proper Workshop for Panzer Corps 2 in fact.

[Kerensky]

By the way, spoilers ahead. If you think SCW reminded of Longcloth.... 1939 has the actual 'only auxiliaries' mission inside of it.

[DarkBlueInk]

Somewhere along the way, this "The First Nemesis: Comandante Vego" took a big left turn.

So to get back on track a bit, I'll say that I like the idea of characters/units like Comandante Vega. I intentionally didn't watch some of the YouTube content so I could be surprised and figure it out on my own. Happy to say & sorry to say that it took me until the outskirts of Madrid to finally take him out. Prior to that, he would make an appearance but my forces were not in a position to surround him and take him down, and he would therefore slip away to fight another day.

Admittedly, I have played this on a much easier Colonel level and I have no issues using general traits and the randomly generated heroes. My biggest frustration is that my armor, my fighters, and my AA are so inferior/useless that in some scenarios I am ready to quit. It is a chore to constantly be looking to surround and capture, but the positive side is that I am learning some of the tactics I should have learned back in March (splitting forces, suppression, surrounding/forcing surrenders).

My hope is that the designers and developers continue to be creative and to introduce new gameplay mechanics. We have lots of levers to increase/decrease the difficulty. And I am sure that better AI allies controls will come along - just don't quit on it now.

For anyone at Slitherine/Matrix my one suggestions is to add a reminder at the end of the deployment phase regarding auxiliary forces. We get a reminder for not using all core slots and heroes, but not for AUX troops. I played half of a scenario with no Italian auxiliaries before I noticed the 0/15 at the top of the screen.

Otherwise, I am loving the game overall even if some scenarios or game mechanics are a little frustrating.

Cheers!

[Andy2012]

If I could go back and change anything, I would go back and change nothing.

I would take being overly ambitious over extra timid every time. If the first DLC didn't show the game trying to grow and expand, it sends the terrible, terrible message that what you see is what you will get for the rest of Panzer Corps 2's lifespan. Endless missions of 'Capture all Victory Hexes' forever and ever. No innovation, just a machine stamping out an endless stream of the same content.

I don't recall a bonus objective system existing in Panzer General, Panzer General 2, Panzer Corps, or any Panzer Corps DLC. Exchange commendation points for rewards was equally novel, and definitely a popular new feature. The only complaints people have over it is that they always want all the rewards, which is tough because they are tied to sometimes very difficult bonus objectives.

Named characters in briefings, a female character, and a very unusual final debriefing are all never before seen. Sure some people roll their eyes at it and just skip over it, but some people really like the immersion it brings to have era appropriate characters flavoring the content with their personal perspectives.

We massively overhyped the Nemesis, and as we see in this now very long thread, most people were hyper aware of him and focused on eliminating him ASAP. Maximum 15 OS with stacked heroes means nothing to the most determined player.

The nice thing about having so many potential DLC is that each one gets to shine in a unique way. Each is an opportunity to experiment and see what works and what doesn't.

Spanish Civil War is generating a metric ton of discussion, and that's really healthy for the game's long term viability. We want people to enjoy it and love it, but how will we know what people will love until we try? Commendation system and named characters were hugely welcomed. AI Ally was definitely mixed in reception with strong opinions for and against.

Wanna guess which features will appear and which will not in upcoming DLC 1939? I'll give you a hint, the more controversial something turned out to be, the less likely it is to reappear.

Ultimately, the Spanish Civil War was a unique conflict, which is perhaps why it's often overlooked in many games. We took a chance to give unique gameplay (non-unified command) in the one place where it fits historically. I have no regrets over that what-so-ever.

But we're always listening to feedback, and keeping it in mind for what comes next. Will Spanish Civil War ever get manual Nationalist control? Probably not. Will a mod allow for manual Nationalist control? It already exists, even before a proper Workshop for Panzer Corps 2 in fact.

Yes, I agree that taking risks is important in business and creative ideas cannot please everyone. I was at first very annoyed at OoB because I tried to play it like Panzercorps and Panzer General. After I learned the ropes, I enjoyed it.

The difference was just that I was in control and it was all MY mistakes. In SCW, I watch helplessly as the AI pursues a damaged recon car with two units on the wrong side of the map far away from the objectives or my support units; they cannot kill each other, both AI reinforce every turn, sapping my prestige. Meanwhile, my offensive is stalled out. I have to playtest every map to find out what the AI will do and then adapt. I am not in control, I am supporting a very sloppy, overspending computer ally. For example, I picked Malaga because allegedly there are only minimal AI forces (yay, f*ck them). But the problem persists: They attack with infantry over a bridge an overstrength Trubia tank while my support units want to flank from the other side. Reinforcements drain my prestige, the AI kills the infantry and I have no infantry units to assault the final objective. The only good thing that comes out of this is that I do not forget time while wargaming as sometimes before: Annoyance and frustration kills so much immersion, I can only play SCW in short bursts. I think an easy fix or patch that would ameliorate this is either being able to take full control or have the AI resupply from its own generous prestige pool. Not mine.

[Andy2012]

By the way, spoilers ahead. If you think SCW reminded of Longcloth.... 1939 has the actual 'only auxiliaries' mission inside of it.

Nothing wrong with that. As long as I can control them, I like it.

[nexusno2000]

I think maybe you also need to look at your playstyle.

Malaga is a very easy mission, with plenty of aux support and a map that lends itself well to the AI's play style.

One good tip is to never let the AI be alone. Always have air and artillery support, and some ground units to pick off wounded enemies.

But for the most part, I loathe watching AI vs AI, especially on choke point maps. Early Madrid and Ebro spring to mind. I don't care if it's novel and thematic. It's boring as f too. I'm here to play, not watch the machine.

The nemesis is an excellent idea, but it's more fun when you let them have more lives, so you can meet the same nemesis repeatedly.

[Andy2012]

I think maybe you also need to look at your playstyle.

Malaga is a very easy mission, with plenty of aux support and a map that lends itself well to the AI's play style.

One good tip is to never let the AI be alone. Always have air and artillery support, and some ground units to pick off wounded enemies.

But for the most part, I loathe watching AI vs AI, especially on choke point maps. Early Madrid and Ebro spring to mind. I don't care if it's novel and thematic. It's boring as f too. I'm here to play, not watch the machine.

The nemesis is an excellent idea, but it's more fun when you let them have more lives, so you can meet the same nemesis repeatedly.

I know, that's what I meant with 'playing a mission, seeing what the AI does, restarting and then deploying according to the AI's whims and wishes'. I agree that Malaga were an easy mission if I had full control. I already finished the main campaign on General with no major issues (and had a lot of fun). The AI has its ideas of playing a map and I have mine, same goes for spending prestige. Sadly, the AI seems to rule supreme and I am relegated to a fringe role. God, this annoys me so much.

[adiekmann]

I was at first very annoyed at OoB because I tried to play it like Panzercorps and Panzer General. After I learned the ropes, I enjoyed it.

This is my experience with OoB exactly. However, I did not stick with it after a few attempts and the very reason why I bought it was to address an itch that was waiting for the next Panzer Corps.

The difference was just that I was in control and it was all MY mistakes. In SCW, I watch helplessly as the AI pursues a damaged recon car with two units on the wrong side of the map far away from the objectives or my support units; they cannot kill each other, both AI reinforce every turn, sapping my prestige. Meanwhile, my offensive is stalled out. I have to playtest every map to find out what the AI will do and then adapt. I am not in control, I am supporting a very sloppy, overspending computer ally. For example, I picked Malaga because allegedly there are only minimal AI forces (yay, f*ck them). But the problem persists: They attack with infantry over a bridge an overstrength Trubia tank while my support units want to flank from the other side. Reinforcements drain my prestige, the AI kills the infantry and I have no infantry units to assault the final objective. The only good thing that comes out of this is that I do not forget time while wargaming as sometimes before: Annoyance and frustration kills so much immersion, I can only play SCW in short bursts. I think an easy fix or patch that would ameliorate this is either being able to take full control or have the AI resupply from its own generous prestige pool. Not mine.

One of the biggest problems with the AI controlled Infantry and game mechanics is the bug that core AT and Art still do not provide support fire. You can manually support them offensively of course, but not defensively. This is especially frustrating at Early Madrid and Ebro. It weakens the AI allies greatly when your AT and Art won't provide supporting fire when they are attacked. That's what you really are there for anyways, isn't it? Furthermore, it appears that when Nationalist infantry capture an enemy flag, you are not getting the prestige for it. I may be mistaken, but I believe to remember this wasn't the case until the last patch, but it certainly doesn't happen now. So issues with your AI units draining your prestige get exasperated when they are not giving any in return. Again, a bug that has yet to be fixed.

I am still waiting for a patch to fix these huge core issues. It certainly makes the game more challenging but for the wrong reasons.

[Kerensky]

While not sharing fire support is an unfortunate bug, sharing prestige is intended because they also feed you prestige from all hex captures as well as when they force an enemy unit to surrender. Sharing with your ally is a two way street.

Recapturing flags doesn't give repeat prestige. And there is a lot of back and forth flag capturing in the Grand Campaign.

[nexusno2000]

I think maybe you also need to look at your playstyle.

Malaga is a very easy mission, with plenty of aux support and a map that lends itself well to the AI's play style.

One good tip is to never let the AI be alone. Always have air and artillery support, and some ground units to pick off wounded enemies.

But for the most part, I loathe watching AI vs AI, especially on choke point maps. Early Madrid and Ebro spring to mind. I don't care if it's novel and thematic. It's boring as f too. I'm here to play, not watch the machine.

The nemesis is an excellent idea, but it's more fun when you let them have more lives, so you can meet the same nemesis repeatedly.

I know, that's what I meant with 'playing a mission, seeing what the AI does, restarting and then deploying according to the AI's whims and wishes'. I agree that Malaga were an easy mission if I had full control. I already finished the main campaign on General with no major issues (and had a lot of fun). The AI has its ideas of playing a map and I have mine, same goes for spending prestige. Sadly, the AI seems to rule supreme and I am relegated to a fringe role. God, this annoys me so much.

You can try my mod, see if it's more to your liking.

It's not the real deal, I know, but maybe it will be more fun.

It's an excellent game, and the SCW has a lot of good sides. Deserves to be played. And it's more fun to import a core in 1939 than start a new one.

[adiekmann]

While not sharing fire support is an unfortunate bug, sharing prestige is intended because they also feed you prestige from all hex captures as well as when they force an enemy unit to surrender. Sharing with your ally is a two way street.

Recapturing flags doesn't give repeat prestige. And there is a lot of back and forth flag capturing in the Grand Campaign.

Do you know if they will be fixing the support fire bug?

Sharing prestige...

yes, I know and agree with you. What I am saying is that it is NOT giving me ANY prestige when they capture a flag. And yes, for the first time too. I am not confusing it with a flag recapture. I was saying that I believe it did work properly when the FM early release first came out, but not 100% sure any more as it's been too long. But in either case it doesn't now. This is all maps.

[Patrat]

As for Nemesis in Russia... I'm not really aware of any Spanish fighting in Russia, except for the Blue Division siding with the Germans. So no we almost certainly won't see too many foreign Nemesis units by the time the campaign reaches Russia, though the choice of elite Soviet opponents is going to be super interesting to explore. I already have some in mind...

There were Spanish fighting the Germans in Russia. At least several hundred Spanish, ex Republican fighters, ended up in Russia fighting the Nazi's.

If you ever go to add more heros to the Republican side, you really should consider adding the Russian commander Nikolay Voronov https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolay_Voronov

He served in Spain and of course in Russia.

Even better would be Aleksandr Rodimtsev https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Rodimtsev

I believe he was more an actual combat commander in both wars. Voronov was an adviser in Spain and in Russia held Stavka level posts.

It would be kind of cool to run into say Rodimstev in Spain, and then have in show up again in Russia,.

[Andy2012]

While not sharing fire support is an unfortunate bug, sharing prestige is intended because they also feed you prestige from all hex captures as well as when they force an enemy unit to surrender. Sharing with your ally is a two way street.

Recapturing flags doesn't give repeat prestige. And there is a lot of back and forth flag capturing in the Grand Campaign.

I have to to agree with Adiekmann here. If the AI takes a victory hex, I get nothing in prestige. Right now, they assault T-26 in the open for no damage while taking tons themselves. Then they drain my meagre supplies reinforcing.
Combine this with inferior equipment, seemingly bottomless resupply for the enemy AI and this just breaks the game balance. And makes this so annoying to play, I mean watch. Mostly, the AI factions are having it out.

So, when is Poland 1939 coming out again?

EDIT: Apparently, I am now not getting any prestige at all. Just took an airfield so I could reinforce before the AI takes it all - and I got nothing. No, I wasnt holding it before. Went from Republic to Legion Condor flag, no reward. Anybody else experiencing this?

[nexusno2000]

Malaga is bugged and flags give no prestige.

All other scenarios ok AFAIK.