How to hold Russia against a non-Sealioning Player ?

[julyderek]

Hey Guys,

If the Germans SeaLion then they have a weak line offensive against the Russians. I assume a few units are stationed in England and the German force is depleted with the extra fighting in England. So, the Russians would have a relatively better attempt to hold on against the German attack.

Does that mean if you attempt a SeaLion that German player will definitely loose the game ?

What if the player does not attempt SeaLion ? The Russians then face a formidable German offensive. Germans units easily break though the defensive line and encircle all the troops holding positions in the Western Russian cities.

I am playing a PBeM game against Gabriel and he has totally destroyed my Russian defenses and now his German troops are assaulting Moscow.

How do you hold the Germans ? Where do you take a stand ?

[OzHawkeye2]

I think the issue here is to make the use of what you have and what they don't.

As Russia you've got enormous manpower supplies, so taking casaulties isn't a problem in terms of depleting your manpower pool, which can become a concern for an over-taxed German player.

You've also got plenty of space to trade away which again is an advantage Russia enjoys to an extent no-one else does.

It's been my experience that the way to play Russia is very defensively at the start, trading territory for time under most conditions, putting up fights only where the defensive bonuses make it worthwhile, and that basically means cities/forts only. Even a lowly Garrison unit in a city can present a problem.

That said, I also keep a keen eye out for an over-confident invader whose allowed some units (typically those nasty Armoured units pre-winter 41) to advance too far ahead of the rest of their forces. If I can dart in and cross behind one to put them out of supply I'll do it, even if it means losing a unit or two to kill one of theirs. I'm quite happy to accept a 2:1 loss ratio early on as the USSR can absorb that so easily and still churn out replacement Corps units.

The big challenge I've found is trying to hold out for that first summer offensive. Once winter sets in German mobility is paralysed and if that's happened along a broad line running from Leningrad in the north, Moscow in the centre towards Sebastapol in the south then I'm fairly confident that the Germans will run out of puff and/or have to deal with the Western Allies before I'm toast.

If they've forgone Sealion (and I typically do) then the US entry into the war means that the Western Front can no longer be almost completely ignored and a fairly decent invasion force can be assembled by early 43. (I use the UK to build up the RAF, the US to supply the bulk of the land units, and have the RAF blast a port clear for the invasion force to get a supply point from the get go, typically Cherbourg).

[Diplomaticus]

I think the issue here is to make the use of what you have and what they don't.

As Russia you've got enormous manpower supplies, so taking casaulties isn't a problem in terms of depleting your manpower pool, which can become a concern for an over-taxed German player.

You've also got plenty of space to trade away which again is an advantage Russia enjoys to an extent no-one else does.

It's been my experience that the way to play Russia is very defensively at the start, trading territory for time under most conditions, putting up fights only where the defensive bonuses make it worthwhile, and that basically means cities/forts only. Even a lowly Garrison unit in a city can present a problem.

That said, I also keep a keen eye out for an over-confident invader whose allowed some units (typically those nasty Armoured units pre-winter 41) to advance too far ahead of the rest of their forces. If I can dart in and cross behind one to put them out of supply I'll do it, even if it means losing a unit or two to kill one of theirs. I'm quite happy to accept a 2:1 loss ratio early on as the USSR can absorb that so easily and still churn out replacement Corps units.

The big challenge I've found is trying to hold out for that first summer offensive. Once winter sets in German mobility is paralysed and if that's happened along a broad line running from Leningrad in the north, Moscow in the centre towards Sebastapol in the south then I'm fairly confident that the Germans will run out of puff and/or have to deal with the Western Allies before I'm toast.

If they've forgone Sealion (and I typically do) then the US entry into the war means that the Western Front can no longer be almost completely ignored and a fairly decent invasion force can be assembled by early 43. (I use the UK to build up the RAF, the US to supply the bulk of the land units, and have the RAF blast a port clear for the invasion force to get a supply point from the get go, typically Cherbourg).

Right. Like he sez, you've got to look at the whole map. If he's foregone Sealion, maybe the UK's strong enough to cause some mischief early. In the historical war, there was the 1942 raid on Dieppe. Well, a strong Brit player can do better than that if the Axis turns too much of its attention eastward. Even if you can't pull off an early landing, you can threaten one, draw off forces.

[OzHawkeye2]

Yup - when you get right down to it, the Axis player has the much more difficult job.

As the Allied player all I need do in Poland and France is slow the Germans up. I don't need to win, just force the Germans into a 3rd turn for Poland (4 is even better) and push them out to July '40 or so for France (anything more is a bonus).

With that done, they're pretty screwed. Even if they pull off Sealion it takes much too long and diverts too many resources from the Eastern build up and Germany is unable to push deep enough into Russia to keep her momentum going.

If France is dispatched quickly (and cheaply, like no unit losses at all), then it's game on I reckon.

[joerock22]

The way I see it, the German player has two options:

1. Do Sealion and launch a late Barbarossa (August or September)
2. Pass on Sealion and launch an early Barbarossa (June or July)

The key to #1 is a early and easy Sealion. Accomplish this, and you may even be able to invade Russia with a strong force in June or July. Get bogged down and you will have to delay your Barbarossa until maybe October and it will still be weak. If you pass on Sealion, try to invade as early as possble; April is well within the realm of possibilities. Even if you don't have as strong an army as you would have liked, Russian war effort does not increase past about 50% until the fall, regardless of when the Soviets enter the war. The problem with this is that you will have to deal with the western Allies sooner and in greater strength if you forego Sealion. Each option has its benefits and detriments, but you can win with both of them.

[Diplomaticus]

The way I see it, the German player has two options:

Surely the Axis has more than two viable options. C'mon, gang. Let's hear from you about Plan C, Plan D, Plan....

Here's my offering: Knock out the U.S.A.

Sure, it's a long shot, but what if you could pull it off? I may try this, so I don't want to be too explicit here, but the most obvious thing is that you'd have to be dead secret about it--if the Allies smoke out your plan early enough, you'd never pull it off. One way to do it would be with a Sealion invasion designed purely as a feint to draw off forces. Other diversionary tactics may suggest themselves to you.

Another, slower, way, would be by getting the Italian fleet into the Atlantic (via Gibraltar or Suez). Declare war, hit the beaches next to Washington with some elite units, and have enough hardware available to either take the capital in a single quick strike or else duke it out with the Americans.

Again, this would be a very, very tricky gambit, but it could be a game-winner, and it adds to joerock's two sensible suggestions.

[raffo80]

For the record, i am the gabriel you are playing against mate.

But you didn't defend bad, you did the double ring defence and held it for '41. i was able to take moscow only cause i managed to destroy your units near voronetz where you had your tanks, gaining good supremacy in units in russia.

Anyway, sealion for me is a mistake in vanilla and bjr mod.