The First Nemesis: Comandante Vega

[Kerensky]

What are your thoughts on this special enemy unit from the Spanish Civil War?

Is it interesting to see an enemy unit that is extra special in many ways? (OS, heroes, connection with characters, potential to appear more than once)
This first Nemesis was an experiment in many ways, so your thoughts on the concepts are greatly appreciated.

In future, spending a very long time on certain fronts opens up big potential for more Nemesis level enemies. I think there are more than a few historical Soviet figures who deserve this level of treatment to give them the extra special recognition they deserve.

For players who struggled against him, how do you feel about being able to 'chase him off' by throwing an airstrike at him, instead of the unit just attacking suicidally until destroyed as traditional 'attacker' AI units behave?

For those that did knock him out, do you think such a Nemesis unit should have more than 1 total 'life' in future campaigns? Or do you think putting him down once should be all it takes to remove it from all potential future appearances?

[Horseman]

What are your thoughts on this special enemy unit from the Spanish Civil War?

Is it interesting to see an enemy unit that is extra special in many ways? (OS, heroes, connection with characters, potential to appear more than once)
This first Nemesis was an experiment in many ways, so your thoughts on the concepts are greatly appreciated.

In future, spending a very long time on certain fronts opens up big potential for more Nemesis level enemies. I think there are more than a few historical Soviet figures who deserve this level of treatment to give them the extra special recognition they deserve.

For those that did knock him out, do you think such a Nemesis unit should have more than 1 total 'life' in future campaigns? Or do you think putting him down once should be all it takes to remove it from all potential future appearances?

The concept is amazing BUT I was somewhat disappointed to see him gone after I took him out. Let's be real, who's not going to focus some effort on killing such a strong enemy unit?

I think the idea of them escaping even of the unit is killed is a good one. You could have a pop up explaining there was no sign of "the nemisis" body or something like that. And in the tradition of all good computer games maybe they should come back somehow stronger if you do manage to kill them? But if they survive then they stay as is (a good way to up the challenge for players who manage to knock then out)

[Snake97644]

What are your thoughts on this special enemy unit from the Spanish Civil War?

Is it interesting to see an enemy unit that is extra special in many ways? (OS, heroes, connection with characters, potential to appear more than once)
This first Nemesis was an experiment in many ways, so your thoughts on the concepts are greatly appreciated.

In future, spending a very long time on certain fronts opens up big potential for more Nemesis level enemies. I think there are more than a few historical Soviet figures who deserve this level of treatment to give them the extra special recognition they deserve.

For players who struggled against him, how do you feel about being able to 'chase him off' by throwing an airstrike at him, instead of the unit just attacking suicidally until destroyed as traditional 'attacker' AI units behave?

For those that did knock him out, do you think such a Nemesis unit should have more than 1 total 'life' in future campaigns? Or do you think putting him down once should be all it takes to remove it from all potential future appearances?

I did enjoy the flavor of it; having these units be more survivable would be ok, however I wouldn't want it to become a distraction either, where they become some annoying "wack-a-mole" that never goes away.

[Retributarr]

I haven't yet had the chance to encounter... "El-Desperado!"... so that's where I start!.

"El-Desperado!"... "El'-Supremo' - Commandante' - Maximo' " ...perhaps if premised or to have been actually 'Killed-In-Action' to then just 'Disappear'... would not be quite that entertaining or immersive as rather than just keeping him on... perhaps retiring him for a round or two until he recovers... and is ready for duty again.

Perhaps the "Player" could elect to choose from a "Selection" of courses of action to deal with this situation?. [These suggestions can either be by themselves... or combined with the other given-choices or results listed below... for a final determination on a course of action.]

Endless choice Selection List:

*** For Example: Once Eliminated... he is permanently out of the Game!.
*** Random-Dice-Roll... to determine if he is wounded for a varying specific time [1-3 Scenarios for example] designated time-period... then once again returns to the Game-Scene.
*** Isn't 'Killed'... but now has an additional skill-attribute... to haunt you!.
*** Now according to the Game-Rules... If your 'Nemeses' is or has actually been 'Killed'... then based on the 'Random-Dice-Roll-Odds' random-selector... he either survives... in some designated service capacity .. or is now gone for good
*** He could be Promoted so that now he commands more units... or even some additional skilled/experienced veteran units.. say for example one or more?.

I could think of more... but!... this should be enough to get started with!.

[kondi754]

What are your thoughts on this special enemy unit from the Spanish Civil War?

Is it interesting to see an enemy unit that is extra special in many ways? (OS, heroes, connection with characters, potential to appear more than once)
This first Nemesis was an experiment in many ways, so your thoughts on the concepts are greatly appreciated.

In future, spending a very long time on certain fronts opens up big potential for more Nemesis level enemies. I think there are more than a few historical Soviet figures who deserve this level of treatment to give them the extra special recognition they deserve.

For players who struggled against him, how do you feel about being able to 'chase him off' by throwing an airstrike at him, instead of the unit just attacking suicidally until destroyed as traditional 'attacker' AI units behave?

For those that did knock him out, do you think such a Nemesis unit should have more than 1 total 'life' in future campaigns? Or do you think putting him down once should be all it takes to remove it from all potential future appearances?

Soviet - Lavrinienko (panzer ace for early period of war), Pokryshkin (fighter ace, sophisticated strategist and creator of the strategy of the Soviet air force)
British - "Sailor" Malan, Pattle or Johnson (RAF aces), Guy Gibson (bomber commander)
USA - Lafayette G.Poole (famous tank ace) + some great Canadian tankers

The first names which comes to my mind I think this is a great idea, but it's important not to overdo it

[fluffybunnyuk]

Its fun . It adds plot. It adds an adversary. It adds to the gameplay. It helps even up the battlefield.
I still think there should be an option to turn off notification of heroes on the AI unit details for advanced players. So they come as a *nice* surprise.

I think its done its job. Namely FEAR.
My favourite of the DLC has been reading how players feared it so much they went out of the way to destroy it.

Despite mark 1 having all the terror of a hungry hamster, i think its been one of the DLC highlights.

[adiekmann]

I liked it, but honestly he was bit easy to deal with. I, like most players I suspect, focused on him rather quickly and soon surrounded him until he was significantly weakened.

There's a few ways I can think of that could have made these Nemesis units more challenging.

1. First of all, it was easy to zero in on him because there wasn't much enemy support to prevent you from doing so. When/where he appears, have other AI units appear with him. As a result, the AI infantry hero unit in Burnete actually gave me more fits because it was in a mass of other units.

2. Similar to the last one, perhaps make a group of Nemesis units together? Say three elite units together, for example, that could support each other? That would be a challenge. If done historically as a background story, that would certainly add a lot of spice/immersion to it as well!

3. Place them in advantageous terrain/position, for example on the other side of a major bridge crossing. That way it would take some combined arms approach and/or thinking to remove him. Likewise, maybe he is too difficult or time consuming to remove, so the real solution is to find some other work around which is possible, even if a pain in the ass. The consequence of this of course would also ensure that the Nemesis unit lives on to appear and pester you in a later map!

4. How about (think Russia now) a partisan hero/Nemesis unit?! He/she suddenly and randomly appears mid scenario somewhere behind lines wreaking all kinds of havoc! That would be appropriate too, historically, and would force the player to hold some units back to deal with it.

That's my 2 c worth.

[monkspider]

I loved it and thought he was genuinely terrifying in my first playthrough. During the beta test I suggested that you created "strategy-horror" as a genre with him. I killed him right away on my second playthrough and am trying to keep him alive in my third. It is one of the many brilliant and innovative concepts introduced by the DLC. I think adding more survivability is a good idea, just be sure to take steps to avoid player frustration.

[P5138]

I really liked Vega. There's definitely room for improvement in some aspects, but for the first nemesis you face in a grand campaign he's great. He's predictable, but a good taste of things to come when the war heats up properly.

Possibilities for improvement:
- Make it possible for future nemeses to "escape" if they are destroyed but don't surrender.
- Make the behavior a little less predictable. Maybe set one to use friendly units for escorts, or to attempt to flank around your positions.
- I liked the ability to "hold him off", but it very quickly turned him from a threat to a diversion for a ground attacker for one or two turns every few turns. Maybe make a future one commit to attack, but then pull back after an attack if they are damaged.
- Give the nemeses unique, or at least, new skills. Maybe something like "Overwatch" from X-Com where the unit fires on/ambushes the first enemy that comes in range while defending, or an alternative to Field Medic/Field Repairs that heals adjacent allies, or maybe one called "Saboteur" where the unit will place a single HP mine down as it leaves the hex the first time it's forced to retreat, etc.
- Give the enemy side Commander Traits on the battles with the nemesis in them (until he is defeated, if possible).

The nemesis system adds so many possibilities for interesting enemies without adding new abilities too:
- A sniper with Camouflage, Butcher, and Ferocious Defense (and the new one that ignores encirclement penalties) that targets infantry units with heroes on them. Maybe somehow give them +1 Range against infantry (Or make a ranged infantry class for a sniper unit).
- An aerial ace with Double Movement, Crippling Blow, and First strike that is programmed to hit a target (within aircraft range-1), then re-base immediately afterwards. (This one would be really hard to kill)
- A commando unit with Camouflage, Hit and Run, Overwhelming Attack, and Flag Killer that appears during defense missions to break your garrisons.
- Etc.

In addition to Vega, I loved the addition of normal enemies with Heroes on them. They add a new layer to tactical considerations. While they aren't as defining as Vega was, missions like Teruel and Ebro would have been a little less interesting without those heavy hitters making things seem more dire. It's even better when they're named, as it adds a little more flavor.

[sakura006]

I love the idea of the Nemesis enemy, they add some RPG elements to the campaign. But to be honest, as long as they can be encircled and surrendered, they don't pose a real threat. I actually intentionally encircled him and let him live until the last mission. But he can only cause a bit trouble in the first turn he appeared. After that, he was just encircled and then bombed until out of ammo.

[Kerensky]

I love the idea of the Nemesis enemy, they add some RPG elements to the campaign. But to be honest, as long as they can be encircled and surrendered, they don't pose a real threat. I actually intentionally encircled him and let him live until the last mission. But he can only cause a bit trouble in the first turn he appeared. After that, he was just encircled and then bombed until out of ammo.

I often gave the Nemesis escorts, but they get stripped away pretty easily because they're just normal units.

I wonder if a Nemesis squad will be more interesting. 5 units working in tandem, each with the ability to persist into future scenarios. And with 5, you might want to focus them down one at a time, because trying to engage all 5 at once could hurt too much.

Take 1 down the first time you meet the squad. Next encounter there are only 4 left, and you might cut another one down on next encounter...

It's a bit of work to set up, but the foundation is in place, so it's possible to do.

[scott_mathieson]

I think they add something extra and interesting. For vega the fact he's related to your allies it would have been to hand him over if you force him to surrender. Having boosted enemies was also great.

It might annoy some who don't play with heroes but if you can turn off enemy heros they can do that.

[Retributarr]

I wonder if a Nemesis squad will be more interesting. 5 units working in tandem, each with the ability to persist into future scenarios. And with 5, you might want to focus them down one at a time, because trying to engage all 5 at once could hurt too much.

If these "Nemesis squad or Single-Unit" are going to be a significant-task to take down... then some varying-degrees of compensations should also be considered to be implemented!.

***Firstly!... such as varying-degrees of 'Reward- Production-Points' to remediate the damages/cost in Units & Time to dispense these disruptive-interventionists!.
***Secondly!... Rewards of 'Special-Abilities/Attributes' depending on the 'Task-Elimination-Effort' that was invested or required!.
***Thirdly... perhaps also make it instead to take or have a 'Choice' of "Extra Unit Slots" [2-4 More?] including the "Extra-Core-Unit or Two".
***Fourthly!... 'Extra-Game-Turns' to compensate for this "Arduous-Diversion-Excersize".

[Rhaeg]

I never even realized Vega was (based on) an actual historical figure! Is he supposed to represent this Vega? I assume his sister the Capitana still is a fictional character though?

Personally, I liked the way he was implemented, both gameplay wise as well as story wise. I read here that most people found him too trivial, but myself as an average player thought he was ok as a challenge. I don't like abandoning all my formations just to surround some special hero as soon as he shows up, so he managed to escape in the first scenario I encountered him. I did manage to kill him the second time he showed up.

In future, spending a very long time on certain fronts opens up big potential for more Nemesis level enemies.

I'm all for it. Personally, I'd especially like to see some hard to kill air aces that get better the longer they survive. Not sure how easy it would be to implement it, but maybe some of them would only be permanently killable by one of your own top ace heroes? A duel between the greatest of pilots, that sort of thing.

For players who struggled against him, how do you feel about being able to 'chase him off' by throwing an airstrike at him, instead of the unit just attacking suicidally until destroyed as traditional 'attacker' AI units behave?

I noticed in the first scenario that he'd flee whenever he took a decent amount of damage. Seems like the right way to implement them if you want to keep them alive through several scenarios.

For those that did knock him out, do you think such a Nemesis unit should have more than 1 total 'life' in future campaigns? Or do you think putting him down once should be all it takes to remove it from all potential future appearances?

I'm not 100% sure if I'd like this. It could work, but if you did this, I really think you'd need to consider the following:

• You should definitely get a pop up message upon killing the unit that the hero managed to survive but fled the field or at the very least mention that a body was never found. Otherwise some players would just end up being disappointed if the guy they killed before suddenly appeared again in a later scenario;
• Once you enter the scenario in which the hero could finally be killed for good, it should be mentioned in some way as well. Otherwise some players won't bother going after him, since "he will probably just show up later again anyway";
• There really should be some reward for killing a hero when it is not permanent yet. The reward could be anything from extra prestige (a bit boring) to a trait for the unit that killed him (something useful in any situation or maybe a bonus vs the specific enemy hero in future encounters? "Vega's bane" or something like that) or otherwise a nerf to the enemy hero in future scenarios.

I often gave the Nemesis escorts, but they get stripped away pretty easily because they're just normal units.

I wonder if a Nemesis squad will be more interesting. 5 units working in tandem, each with the ability to persist into future scenarios. And with 5, you might want to focus them down one at a time, because trying to engage all 5 at once could hurt too much.

Take 1 down the first time you meet the squad. Next encounter there are only 4 left, and you might cut another one down on next encounter...

Please don't go too crazy with this for us average players, lol. I do like idea of having to strip them down one by one over several scenarios though. Would it be possible to give the Nemesis a trait that will keep him at strength 1 (unkillable) as long as at least one of his escorts is alive and adjacent to him? Are synergy traits a possibility, i.e. traits that only give certain bonuses depending on whether other units with the same trait are next to it? It would be nice if these bonuses then diminish in strength as the number of surrounding units with the specific trait goes down, slowly making the enemy hero and its escorts weaker... Or you could do something evil and implement the reverse: you strip away the escorting units, but the nemesis gets more determined the more of them are lost and becomes stronger as you kill the escorts Just some ideas, I have no idea how hard it would be to implement this.

Edit: these Nemesis heroes with escort should remain something really special though, so you might consider having only one of those alive at any time and have any other Nemesis heroes be more simple like mr. Vega. Even then I wouldn't throw around too many of the 'simple' ones, you already have basic heroes for that.

[Kerensky]

Please don't go too crazy with this for us average players, lol. I do like idea of having to strip them down one by one over several scenarios though. Would it be possible to give the Nemesis a trait that will keep him at strength 1 (unkillable) as long as his escorts is alive and adjacent to him? Are synergy traits a possibility, i.e. traits that only give certain bonuses depending on whether other units with the same trait are next to it? It would be nice if these bonuses then diminish in strength as the number of surrounding units with the specific trait goes down, slowly making the enemy hero and its escorts weaker... Or you could do something evil and implement the reverse: you strip away the escorting units, but the nemesis gets more determined the more of them are lost and becomes stronger as you kill the escorts Just some ideas, I have no idea how hard it would be to implement this.

Interesting input all around, thanks for sharing.

To this part specifically though... ohh I think an 'invulnerability' state is a little bit too much video game logic and a bit too far away from strategy wargaming. Can you imagine a player not understanding this magic invulnerability, and just smashing a 1 str IS2 with their King Tigers over and over and nothing happens? I think that would stretch suspension of disbelief into breaking.

Historic heroes falling is very historical. There's no need to have Hollywood magic plot armor for such units. It is the ultimate sacrifice that these real people made is why we remember them as heroes. In original Grand Campaign, anytime I learned a German fighter ace didn't survive the war, I gave them negative defense 'bonuses'. Having special Nemesis level enemies will hopefully be a great way to put a spotlight not exclusively on Germans, but to showcase some pretty epic Allied heroes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFEZnscW8KA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yegor_Solyankin

[Rhaeg]

Interesting input all around, thanks for sharing.

Np, it's always nice to see developers actively asking for feedback so it's a small effort to give a reply!

To this part specifically though... ohh I think an 'invulnerability' state is a little bit too much video game logic and a bit too far away from strategy wargaming. Can you imagine a player not understanding this magic invulnerability, and just smashing a 1 str IS2 with their King Tigers over and over and nothing happens? I think that would stretch suspension of disbelief into breaking.

You're probably right with this, I just spew forth any idea that comes up in my mind, like brainstorming out loud My experience with strategy wargaming is limited to Panzer General/Panzer Corps/Order of Battle so I sometimes think more in terms of game mechanics rather than realism, I guess. Hopefully there's some interesting idea in between all of it every now and again though

[Mojko]

I think the Nemesis leader is a great concept but quite poorly implemened. In my playthrough I barely noticed the unit as it approached my whole army on it's own. What can I say - clean one turn full surround and surrender.

I think the Nemesis leader should always survive for the next battle multiple times until the final battle where it can be a bonus objective to take him out for good. The reward can be that part of the enemy forces will become inactive.

[wecker]

Hi Kerensky,

I adore the idea of nemesis heroes.

I tried 5 times the Merida scenario until I managed to surround Comandante Vega and force him to surrender.

Now the Vickers is mine and he serves me well in Toledo

Although I fought the scenario 5 times I somehow regret having done that.

Will I ever know whether when he would have returned? I don`t think so.

Forcing a unit to surrender would In "reality" mean that he could have survived or be wounded. But hearing his sisters words in the briefing suggest he may be dead.

But imagine he is wounded, he doesn`t get shot afterwards (could happen in a Civil War situation) and survives somehow in a prison camp.

Imagine he gets exchanged or manages to flee in disguise and appear later on in the campaign - to his sisters suprise

The problem is when you totally kill the Vickers unit - then he most shurely would be dead - no hospital - no prison camp.

Regarding future DLCs you may think about other possibilities.

Poles fleeing to Romania and then to England, forming new in France and fighting in Narvik. Also famous were polish squadrons of the RAF in the Battle of Britain.

Not to forget the plight of the Anders Army, getting POW in the Soviet Union and then leaving via Iran for the Middle East and fighting at Monte Cassino.

French troops could also survive and fight for the Free French in Narvik, Bir Hakeim in North Africa and then liberating Paris.

British troops could leave via Dunkirk and fight on in North Africa and so on.

You could also think of captured Soviet POWs escaping and fighting as Partisans. You could also implement the Vlassov Army - remnants of them fought in the last days of WW2 in Prague against the germans.

The possibilities are many.

Have fun in creating ideas - real history sounds sometimes like fantasy.

[Kerensky]

Hi Kerensky,

I adore the idea of nemesis heroes.

I tried 5 times the Merida scenario until I managed to surround Comandante Vega and force him to surrender.

Now the Vickers is mine and he serves me well in Toledo

Although I fought the scenario 5 times I somehow regret having done that.

Will I ever know whether when he would have returned? I don`t think so.

Forcing a unit to surrender would In "reality" mean that he could have survived or be wounded. But hearing his sisters words in the briefing suggest he may be dead.

But imagine he is wounded, he doesn`t get shot afterwards (could happen in a Civil War situation) and survives somehow in a prison camp.

Imagine he gets exchanged or manages to flee in disguise and appear later on in the campaign - to his sisters suprise

The problem is when you totally kill the Vickers unit - then he most shurely would be dead - no hospital - no prison camp.

Regarding future DLCs you may think about other possibilities.

Poles fleeing to Romania and then to England, forming new in France and fighting in Narvik. Also famous were polish squadrons of the RAF in the Battle of Britain.

Not to forget the plight of the Anders Army, getting POW in the Soviet Union and then leaving via Iran for the Middle East and fighting at Monte Cassino.

French troops could also survive and fight for the Free French in Narvik, Bir Hakeim in North Africa and then liberating Paris.

British troops could leave via Dunkirk and fight on in North Africa and so on.

You could also think of captured Soviet POWs escaping and fighting as Partisans. You could also implement the Vlassov Army - remnants of them fought in the last days of WW2 in Prague against the germans.

The possibilities are many.

Have fun in creating ideas - real history sounds sometimes like fantasy.

Wow 5 times replayed. I hope it was fun, but you basically compressed entire campaign's worth of nemesis appearance into those replays. If you continued any of the previous 4 where you did not eliminate him... you would have gotten another crack at him down the line. =)

This behavior makes me think we were definitely on the right track with the Nemesis. A unit so important deserves message prompts, including that prompt on destruction. And given the lengths some people go toward eliminating them, it robs players of agency if you destroy them and they just reappear regardless. If someone takes that much effort to put him down, he should stay down. If that means the Nemesis misses out on all future appearances... well that is the price of giving the player such strong agency to affect the content.

Future Nemesis will learn from their earlier iterations. I think 'some' of them maybe should 'escape' after the first time their unit is destroyed. But it's clear now they should NEVER have more than 1 extra life. At that point, it's just robbing the player of their agency, because it continues to persist regardless of you killing it or ignoring it or leaving it surrounded and impotent at the end of the scenario. Better to just create more Nemesis than to having one Nemesis that constantly returns regardless of player actions.



As for wholesale preservation, I dunno. That's become less a Nemesis system, and more just the enemy preserving forces wholesale. I don't think players would recognize large formations of the enemy after a long period of time... especially by the time you encounter them again, they most likely have new unit designations and new equipment at their disposal, despite still being the same men manning those vehicles.

But regardless, making note of special and historical Allied figures is definitely a good idea, and good application of enemy hero and enemy Nemesis units. SCW was an experiment, and clearly a very successful one! 1939 bounces around a bit, going from Czech to French border to Poland and continuing to bounce even more afterwards....

But 1940 is probably going to almost entirely be invasion of France (though I have many ideas to visit other hot spots of 1940 !no spoilers!). Reoccurring appearance of units should fit nicely in there. And assuming we spend a lot of time on the Eastern Front like original Grand Campaign, Soviet heroes is a no brainer. Dunno, that's too far away to say for sure it is the direction Panzer Corps 2 DLC will take. One step at a time, 1939 first, and then we'll see where the game goes from there bit by bit.

Either way, huge potential for very interesting things!

[Retributarr]

Heyaa!!!... What about a "what-For"... for our side???:

Why-not consider including... a... "General Patton"... "Bernard Montgomery"... "Rommel"... "Zhukov"... just to name a few!.

If the 'AI' is going to have a rafter of "Heroes"... we should have some too!... shouldn't we???.