Ordering my Allies (Spanish Civil War)

[sabo10]

What is the difference between ordering your allies to defend, and ordering you allies to hold position?

[Kerensky]

What is the difference between ordering your allies to defend, and ordering you allies to hold position?

On defend, they still move. They move toward friendly controlled Victory Hexes, and will move to attack good targets if they are within range.

On Hold Position, they don't move for anything. They lock down in place and stand still. Usually spending their turn to buy repairs for damaged units.

[KesaAnna]

I have a ( dumb ? ) question regarding this ;

-- Can I just click the Attack - defend - hold button once , and -- presumably -- all Nationalist units will follow that one order ?

-- And / or I can click each unit individually and then , with that unit selected , give it one of the three orders ?

Naturally , with Nationalist units , just like with my own units , at the end of a given turn one unit is still at full strength and fresh as a daisy , but another unit has been knocked down to minus - ten strength. In that case , I want the former unit to keep advancing or attack , but I want the latter unit to stop , do nothing , and re - supply.

In the game so far I have done both ; Issued orders to the Nationalists as a whole just once per turn , and / or issued orders to individual units , and it SEEMS to work .

The unit I individually selected and ordered to hold indeed stopped , and did nothing ( except re - supply as I had hoped it would ) and the other units continued to advance and attack , where I issued a general attack order , but without selecting a unit.

But that is perhaps where confirmation bias and ignorance enters into it ?

I noticed in the second scenario of Spain that one particular unit , I think it was Civil guards -- guys wearing a hat that reminds me of Napoleon's famous hat , followed orders to advance / attack until I captured the first town and air field. After that , the unit commenced marching back and forth down the road , from my starting positions to the first town , and back . Back and forth , the rest of the scenario . Seemingly ignoring orders when individually given to them to attack , and ignoring a general , single order to attack.

Later , when I captured victory hexes , a Nationalist unit would seem to peel off from the main body and commence hovering around that victory hex in defense mode , which would be fine , except that even the nearest enemy recon unit is over 12 hexes away , like the previous Civil Guard unit ignoring both individually given and generally given orders to continue attacking / advancing.

Maybe that's a bug ? Or maybe that's a deliberate game mechanic ? Or maybe I'm screwing up the give - orders - to - allies mechanic ?

[sabo10]

What is the difference between ordering your allies to defend, and ordering you allies to hold position?

On defend, they still move. They move toward friendly controlled Victory Hexes, and will move to attack good targets if they are within range.

On Hold Position, they don't move for anything. They lock down in place and stand still. Usually spending their turn to buy repairs for damaged units.

Good to know. Thanks. PS I wish there was a way to have some attack and some defend...

[o_t_d_x]

I think this ai allies idea is a perfect example for a design decision, that looks good on paper, is fresh at the first trys when you play it, but in the end only one thing lasts: not enough control . I dont feel like a general, i feel like herding cats.

With muuuuch better ai and or better and more precise orders, this idea might be great.

[o_t_d_x]

A member of the community informed me, that its historical, that the spanish nationalists often disobeyed orders and acted stupid. So nowadays gaming ais are perfect to manage the spanish nationalists. Seems i have to learn the difference between real soldiers, like wehrmacht and ss and ... these sad spanish excuses for real soldiers. Even the italians feel like space marines, compared to them.

[Csar]

A member of the community informed me, that its historical, that the spanish nationalists often disobeyed orders and acted stupid. So nowadays gaming ais are perfect to manage the spanish nationalists. Seems i have to learn the difference between real soldiers, like wehrmacht and ss and ... these sad spanish excuses for real soldiers. Even the italians feel like space marines, compared to them.

I am afraid that is completely wrong. Spanish infantry was considered as one of the best infantry in the world. It was very well regarded by their German allies in the USRR campaign. It is true that the command chain was not properly followed in some cases but that almost always happened in the Republican side due to the different factions involved: anarquists, communist, etc

[o_t_d_x]

Patrat wrote:

"Spanish infantry was notorious for not following orders. It would either not attack or attack the wrong objective, or just flee the battlefield.
Wolfram Richtofen was an air commander during the war. His diary is full of complaints about the nationalist infantry not following orders.

It would not be very realistic if the player controlled the nationalist infantry."

I dont think, that he meant regular spanish infantry, you mean the division azul i think it was called that fought in russia ?

[Csar]

Patrat wrote:

"Spanish infantry was notorious for not following orders. It would either not attack or attack the wrong objective, or just flee the battlefield.
Wolfram Richtofen was an air commander during the war. His diary is full of complaints about the nationalist infantry not following orders.

It would not be very realistic if the player controlled the nationalist infantry."

I dont think, that he meant regular spanish infantry, you mean the division azul i think it was called that fought in russia ?

Yes, the division azul was the division who fought in Russia. They were voluntaries who fought in the Spanish Civil War. They were regular, not elite troops.

[Turtler]

I am afraid that is completely wrong. Spanish infantry was considered as one of the best infantry in the world.

Not really. And keep in mind this is an era where people (particularly the ABDA Command at the start of the Pacific) chronically underestimated some of the truly besti nfantry in the world in the form of the IJA and iJN.

As far as I can tell, particularly during the time of the Spanish Civil War, very few units were regarded as respectable or even distinguished, and those tended to belong to either the Army of Africa vets like the Regulares and Legion (and even they were viewed as something akin to poor sisters for the French Army in the area, but that was still acknowledged as being "Very Good."), Durruti's Column, and to a lesser extent the Civil and Assault Guardias.

Beyond that opinions ranged from "good but not great" to "serviceable" to "OMG WHAT ARE THESE PEOPELE?!?!" With opinions heavily veering towards the latter. Granted this wasn't a particular problem with SPANIARDS per se, as the International Brigades proved to be monumentally overhyped and not very effective, but it's telling that the CTV regularly punched up and above the average in light of its later fiascos during WWII.

So on the whole, Spanish infantry were not highly regarded at the start of the Civil War (especially since they had dealt with things like the Disaster at Annual in the not-too-distant-past) and generally waned as the war went on, though that was fixed to some degree with the Nationalist victory bringing the far-less-incompetent side to power (though even then the Germans are noted to have demanded Franco execute a bunch of supposedly "incompetent" officers, which Franco rejected in part by saying he didn't have enough officers to go around). And while perception isn't everything it is a solid indicator.

It was very well regarded by their German allies in the USRR campaign.

So a single division of volunteers years after the Civil War, buoyed in morale by being volunteers and comprised heavily of veterans who had had time to learn the lessons of the Civil War, means that bog standard Nationalist infantry half a decade later like the Requetes were well regarded?

The Spanish Blue Division fought very well, including against stiff odds and was genuinely well regarded, but they also were exceptions in Spanish military history at the time for a number of reasons, particularly because they had the ability to conduct extensive military training before hitting the front and were equipped with modern arms. That's something that plenty of units among nations far better equipped and prepared than Spain didn't get, and it shows.

It is true that the command chain was not properly followed in some cases but that almost always happened in the Republican side due to the different factions involved: anarquists, communist, etc

The Republicans had the short end of the thin straw it is true, but let's not kid ourselves when it came to unity of command among the Nationalists, ESPECIALLY early in the Civil War. Franco was initially a junior officer in the coup next to Sanjuro the spiritual leader and Mola the Genius, and his refusal to act led him to be mocked as "Miss Canary Isles." And on the tactical and operational level this got even worse, particularly when you realize the game is probably being generous by keeping all the Nacionalistas under one banner. And this persisted well into the war, as the fiascos around Alto Gallego and even the ultimately victorious Gandesa campaign showed.

Spaniards- particularly Nationalists- were rarely criticized for cowardice per se (though a bunch of militias were), but coordination and tactics were other matters in an era where few militaries in the world had truly gotten them together in the combined arms post-WWI world, only a few more had significant experience in it, and Spain was not one of those (outside of maybe the Army of Africa).

[gadflyjs]

Just finished Teruel, 3 spanish cavalries follow my order to attack, but what they attacked was a 1 strength pillbox far behind the front line, which I skipped that before due to no threat to anything. What a waste to attack something you could not destroy with 3 cavalries! I had to use a bomber to destroy it and release these 3 bad boys back to the frontline. Another one stayed behind to attack a tank and a recon alone! But both sides couldn't finish off the other, and that cavalry used prestige to continuously fight a fight couldn't be won! There goes the prestige hard earned.

[nexusno2000]

Just finished Teruel, 3 spanish cavalries follow my order to attack, but what they attacked was a 1 strength pillbox far behind the front line, which I skipped that before due to no threat to anything. What a waste to attack something you could not destroy with 3 cavalries! I had to use a bomber to destroy it and release these 3 bad boys back to the frontline. Another one stayed behind to attack a tank and a recon alone! But both sides couldn't finish off the other, and that cavalry used prestige to continuously fight a fight couldn't be won! There goes the prestige hard earned.

AI seems to think attacking those pillboxes is a good exchange...or maybe it's like moths to a flame...I usually take them out with AT guns or 88s in AT mode, so they won't attract the AI

[smashtheaxis]

A related question: is there an indicator for which of the three available commands the allies are currently given? For example at the start of a scenario, before I even touched the control?

[nexusno2000]

A related question: is there an indicator for which of the three available commands the allies are currently given? For example at the start of a scenario, before I even touched the control?

Not as far as I know.

[smashtheaxis]

A related question: is there an indicator for which of the three available commands the allies are currently given? For example at the start of a scenario, before I even touched the control?

Not as far as I know.

Hmm, definitely something that would be good to have. So you know what they will do once you end your turn.

[Tumnog]

Just a quick question @ SCV... is there any point in purchasing Italian infantry at all? (to help offset my 'volatile' Nationalist AI allies )
Am I correct to assume they do not carry over to the next (1939) DLC?

[nexusno2000]

Italian inf is awesome, as they actually follow orders.

Cav is better, but cost a pretty penny.

[dalfrede]

Just a quick question @ SCV... is there any point in purchasing Italian infantry at all? (to help offset my 'volatile' Nationalist AI allies )
Am I correct to assume they do not carry over to the next (1939) DLC?

Since they don't carry over into the next scenario, they won't carry over into next DLC.

Having Inf that will enter a VH on command is very useful.

[asuser]

Maybe I'm a little late with playing SCW and I know there is a mod for switching AI to Core/Aux Nationalists...

... but I'm fascinated by the AI ​​control concept. Is there a recommendation on how to play, how to fight together with the AI Nationalists? The attack, defend and hold commands always apply to all AI troops at the same time after the "click". But that doesn't make sense if one unit should withdraw and the other unit should attack?

Otherwise you would have to use different control boxes for each individual AI unit in the LUA script?

Are there any useful things happen or to do by me as the "commanding general" since the early days?