I dont like ai allies...

[o_t_d_x]

First i thought that its a cool new way of playing, but now i am starting to hate these ai fools.

1. they always open holes in my lines so my soft targets get punished often, which costs too much prestige. So i stopped helping them, just using them as meat shields.

2. Sometimes i would need more detailed orders: the left flank was very far ahead, the right one far behind. So i needed to give orders hold AND advance to the others, but thats not possible. When i say attack, the guys back move in the right direction. But the ones who are already where they should be, move too. Often into the open as easy prey for tanks. Reducing player control and give it to the stupid ai (no offense - all tbs ai´s are stupid with the exception of simple games like chess of course) is never a good design decision. I would definitly prefer to control the spanish nationalist infantry directly.

3. I lost a scenario only, because of the stupid allied ai. There where 2 victory hexes (only one was needed for vic.): one nearly undefended and the other was unreachable. (a whole army blocked the way) The ai decided to ignore the easy pick (even it was nearer and only defended by air def.) and tried to fight its way through an army with only 2 infantry units. But i can only say ATTACK - i cant say attack the easy target - the other target is suicide.

What do we learn ? Such experiments should always have an option to turn the ai off ! And no, i dont want to waste prestige for auxilary italians.

Everything else bout your fst. dlc i really like. Much better then i thought. Keep up the good work.

[kondi754]

First i thought that its a cool new way of playing, but now i am starting to hate these ai fools.

1. they always open holes in my lines so my soft targets get punished often, which costs too much prestige. So i stopped helping them, just using them as meat shields.

2. Sometimes i would need more detailed orders: the left flank was very far ahead, the right one far behind. So i needed to give orders hold AND advance to the others, but thats not possible. When i say attack, the guys back move in the right direction. But the ones who are already where they should be, move too. Often into the open as easy prey for tanks. Reducing player control and give it to the stupid ai (no offense - all tbs ai´s are stupid with the exception of simple games like chess of course) is never a good design decision. I would definitly prefer to control the spanish nationalist infantry directly.

3. I lost a scenario only, because of the stupid allied ai. There where 2 victory hexes (only one was needed for vic.): one nearly undefended and the other was unreachable. (a whole army blocked the way) The ai decided to ignore the easy pick (even it was nearer and only defended by air def.) and tried to fight its way through an army with only 2 infantry units. But i can only say ATTACK - i cant say attack the easy target - the other target is suicide.

What do we learn ? Such experiments should always have an option to turn the ai off ! And no, i dont want to waste prestige for auxilary italians.

Everything else bout your fst. dlc i really like. Much better then i thought. Keep up the good work.

I think this solution is cool
You have to better control this forces, you should use all 3 commands in every scenario: attack (about 70-80% of scenario turns), defend and hold positions (20-30% of scenario turns)
When the situation on the battlefield becomes dangerous and there are too many attacking enemy units, don't hesitate to stop the Nationalists infantry, because they mainly have to protect the supporting LC units
I always buy 6-8 Italian infantry units to take the burden of getting the missing VPs in this situation

In general, I think that all changes proposed by the designer (Kerensky?) in SCW are a great idea, the game offers a completely new quality now

EDIT. Oh one more thing, you really don't need to capture everything to win the map and go to the next scenario

[o_t_d_x]

I think this solution is cool
You have to better control this forces, you should use all 3 commands in every scenario: attack (about 70-80% of scenario turns), defend and hold positions (20-30% of scenario turns)
When the situation on the battlefield becomes dangerous and there are too many attacking enemy units, don't hesitate to stop the Nationalists infantry, because they mainly have to protect the supporting LC units
I always buy 6-8 Italian infantry units to take the burden of getting the missing VPs in this situation

In general, I think that all changes proposed by the designer (Kerensky?) in SCW are a great idea, the game offers a completely new quality now

EDIT. Oh one more thing, you really don't need to capture everything to win the map and go to the next scenario

Next time read my posting more carefully - you dont tell me anything new. Imagine the following: 2 turns left - you need only one vic hex - and all you can do is use ATTACK order. You cant tell them precisly where they should attack, and in my special case the ai ignored sure victory. Which order would YOU have choosen in that special case ? Defend ? Hold ? You loose. Attack - right order but the ai is to stupid to attack the easy vic hex - so you loose too.

[terminator]

For the moment (I’m in Bilbao) I like the idea of this AI. Sometimes the AI doesn’t send the units where we want them to go but we can’t always control everything

[kondi754]

If you are not 100% sure where your Nationalists will go and there is a risk that they will expose your artillery position, then don't hesitate to use Hold Position order and fight on with Italian infantry
Also, take your time, there is enough time to take all the required locations

[o_t_d_x]

If you are not 100% sure where your Nationalists will go and there is a risk that they will expose your artillery position, then don't hesitate to use Hold Position order and fight on with Italian infantry
Also, take your time, there is enough time to take all the required locations

There was no italian infanty and i dont want to waste prestige for aux. units., to compensate the "artificial idiot."

[o_t_d_x]

If you are not 100% sure where your Nationalists will go and there is a risk that they will expose your artillery position, then don't hesitate to use Hold Position order and fight on with Italian infantry
Also, take your time, there is enough time to take all the required locations

Your noob tips dont help - i know that already.

[kondi754]

If you are not 100% sure where your Nationalists will go and there is a risk that they will expose your artillery position, then don't hesitate to use Hold Position order and fight on with Italian infantry
Also, take your time, there is enough time to take all the required locations

There was no italian infanty and i dont want to waste prestige for aux. units., to compensate the "artificial idiot."

Unfortunately, but SCW is invented in such a way that continuous spending of prestige on aux units is a must

[o_t_d_x]

For the moment (I’m in Bilbao) I like the idea of this AI. Sometimes the AI doesn’t send the units where we want them to go but we can’t always control everything

If you have fun with this, i understand it because i did too at the beginning, where the three commands worked very well. But later on, you can loose without doing anything wrong and i am sure you wouldnt like that too.

[kondi754]

If you are not 100% sure where your Nationalists will go and there is a risk that they will expose your artillery position, then don't hesitate to use Hold Position order and fight on with Italian infantry
Also, take your time, there is enough time to take all the required locations

Your noob tips dont help - i know that already.

are You a child?
Noob is probably a Minecraft term

But if my tips are noob, then what is your skills level if you cry that you can't finish a map ?

[o_t_d_x]

If you are not 100% sure where your Nationalists will go and there is a risk that they will expose your artillery position, then don't hesitate to use Hold Position order and fight on with Italian infantry
Also, take your time, there is enough time to take all the required locations

There was no italian infanty and i dont want to waste prestige for aux. units., to compensate the "artificial idiot."

Unfortunately, but SCW is invented in such a way that continuous spending of prestige on aux units is a must

Not in my experience. I won every map that i played fst. try on field marshal without the need for aux units. Maybe that will change later, but till madrid i didnt need them. And even on the map i lost, i would have won easily without aux units. My fault that i couldnt forsee, that 3 ai infantry units stop attacking the victory hex when i press ATTACK and prefer to wander to an enemy army and die without chance there. And all of it 2 turns bevor end.

[o_t_d_x]

If you are not 100% sure where your Nationalists will go and there is a risk that they will expose your artillery position, then don't hesitate to use Hold Position order and fight on with Italian infantry
Also, take your time, there is enough time to take all the required locations

Your noob tips dont help - i know that already.

are You a child?
Noob is probably a Minecraft term

But if my tips are noob, then what is your skills level if you cry that you can't finish a map ?

@Admin: please delete this topic - thx

[kondi754]

No i am just adopting to your level. Lets quit this, you are a beginner, with lots of useless advice, that tells me that i dont need all vic hexes. Great advice - i posted that in my own posting. Next time read postings, then answer.

will you keep barking or will you finally bite ?

I'm sorry that I treated you like a crying child, I didn't know that behind this behavior hid such seasoned expert in strategy games

BTW, I will win with you every map in PzC and PzC2 with my eyes closed

[Patrat]

For the moment (I’m in Bilbao) I like the idea of this AI. Sometimes the AI doesn’t send the units where we want them to go but we can’t always control everything

Truth one: gaming ai is bad.

Truth two: ai does lotz of stupid shit.

Truth tree: soldiers that do lotz of stupid shit become court marshalled and shot.

If you have fun with this, i understand it because i did too at the beginning, where the three commands worked very well. But later on, you can loose without doing anything wrong and i am sure you wouldnt like that too.

As far as truth three goes, that's pretty much what happened in real life.

Spanish infantry was notorious for not following orders. It would either not attack or attack the wrong objective, or just flee the battlefield.
Wolfram Richtofen was an air commander during the war. His diary is full of complaints about the nationalist infantry not following orders.

It would not be very realistic if the player controlled the nationalist infantry.
Also another player pointed out the the nationalist infantry would have to be toned down if the player was given control, because at the moment they are artificially beefed up to compensate for the AIs short comings.

Btw Italian infantry is dirt cheap. It's stupid not to take advantage of them.

[o_t_d_x]

For the moment (I’m in Bilbao) I like the idea of this AI. Sometimes the AI doesn’t send the units where we want them to go but we can’t always control everything

Truth one: gaming ai is bad.

Truth two: ai does lotz of stupid shit.

Truth tree: soldiers that do lotz of stupid shit become court marshalled and shot.

If you have fun with this, i understand it because i did too at the beginning, where the three commands worked very well. But later on, you can loose without doing anything wrong and i am sure you wouldnt like that too.

As far as truth three goes, that's pretty much what happened in real life.

Spanish infantry was notorious for not following orders. It would either not attack or attack the wrong objective, or just flee the battlefield.
Wolfram Richtofen was an air commander during the war. His diary is full of complaints about the nationalist infantry not following orders.

It would not be very realistic if the player controlled the nationalist infantry.
Also another player pointed out the the nationalist infantry would have to be toned down if the player was given control, because at the moment they are artificially beefed up to compensate for the AIs short comings.

Btw Italian infantry is dirt cheap. It's stupid not to take advantage of them.

Thanks for the competent answer. If these guys acted like that IN REAL LIFE, then it was a perfect design decision to let the ai handle it. I really can feel the pain of W. Richthofen: i am used to wehrmacht and ss and now THIS non order obeying suicide fools ?

Regarding aux units: i only buy them if there is absolutly no other way. But in my special scenario, the joke is, i could have conquered the vic hex and win the scenario with my tanks and planes. But i thought even the most stupid ai will always attack the nearest vic. hex - not a hex thats far away and an army blocking the way. I was greedy - i used my own units to farm some targets. So i learned W. Richthofens lesson: Never trust the spanish nationalists to act like soldiers.

[Csar]

For the moment (I’m in Bilbao) I like the idea of this AI. Sometimes the AI doesn’t send the units where we want them to go but we can’t always control everything

Truth one: gaming ai is bad.

Truth two: ai does lotz of stupid shit.

Truth tree: soldiers that do lotz of stupid shit become court marshalled and shot.

If you have fun with this, i understand it because i did too at the beginning, where the three commands worked very well. But later on, you can loose without doing anything wrong and i am sure you wouldnt like that too.

As far as truth three goes, that's pretty much what happened in real life.

Spanish infantry was notorious for not following orders. It would either not attack or attack the wrong objective, or just flee the battlefield.
Wolfram Richtofen was an air commander during the war. His diary is full of complaints about the nationalist infantry not following orders.

It would not be very realistic if the player controlled the nationalist infantry.
Also another player pointed out the the nationalist infantry would have to be toned down if the player was given control, because at the moment they are artificially beefed up to compensate for the AIs short comings.

Btw Italian infantry is dirt cheap. It's stupid not to take advantage of them.

As I comment in another threat that is not correct. Spanish nationalist infantry was of a good quality, very well regarded by their German allies in the north front of the USRR campaign later on. Not following orders of the same way than German one, that it is true but they didn't refuse to attack or just flee the battlefiled. I could happen but it was not usual.
The Republican infantry, on the other side, was different with a lower quality (at least at the beginning of the war). Many there were peasants, not professional soldiers, anarchist, etc.

[Patrat]

The nationalist infantry was fairly competent in the early days of the war, especially the army of Africa veterans. But the quality fell after off after the veterans of the army of Africa suffered casualties that had to be replaced by replacements that weren't as highly trained. Also a lot of their shortcomings were the result of incompetent staff work, and not the fault of the troops themselves.

The Republican army, as you mentioned, was even worse.

My comments were not meant to disparage the troops on either side. Rapidly expanding an army in a short period of time, especially during a civil war, will almost invariably lead to the kind of things that Richthofen complained about.

The same thing happened in the American Civil war.

[Mojko]

I completely agree that the AI is the one issue this otherwise excellent DLC has. This is the problematic behavior I encountered:

- unable to give different orders to different groups (for example group defending Toledo - hold the line, relief group - forward)
- AI clearly doesn't value artillery or recon support nor does seek shelter from air attacks
- AI doesn't prioritize enough killing off weak enemy units (1 to 4 strength)
- sometimes AI over prioritize unit replenishment (14 strength) and sometimes underprioritize (10 or less strength) while having same global orders
- AI doesn't understand enough about flanking and formation

Way back in the beta I requested a feature where you have an ally which has:

- separate unit pool
- separate resource pool
- separate traits
- separate turn
- you still directly control the units

I think we are heading in the right direction. This feature allows the scenario design to be much more varied which is a great thing.

I'm ok with having the allied player to be controlled by AI for flavor sake, but please keep the AI-controlled ally out of the grand campaigns going forward. Use the second player, just simply give it to direct command of the player (but separate turn).

Also, I'm a bit disappointed that the AI ally player doesn't have any traits. A missed opportunity.

[kondi754]

@Mojko,
How about AI-controlled units in OoB? There you have no influence on them.
I think that they behave much better in PzC 2. I would change nothing because the player has a pretty big impact here, and it all comes down to adjust the appropriate tactics.

I think your habits as players speak now, rather than the real need for change. IMHO
This is just the first DLC within the vast GC, let each of these parts be different, your proposals can also be implemented later, e.g. the way of control Romanian, Hungarian and Italian (or Spanish ) units on the Eastern Front

[Horseman]

One tip in helping "control" your AI allies.....

While you can't tell then "Attack this hex" what you can do is guide them........

To do so you need to properly support them with artillery/planes. Lay some fire on that victory hex and suppress/kill some strength points and who do you think the AI will go after? The now 12 str point infantry guarding the objective with minimal entrenchment and several suppressed strength points or the unit at full strength fully entrenched in the hills?

Its subtle and like herding cattle - they can't follow orders to the letter but they will take the path of least resistence