Anthony and Cleopatra - Later Ptomlemaic

Irmin · Post by **Irmin** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:15 am

Trying to recreate the illustrious past of Anthony and Cleopatra, 795pts of troops in 12 BGs, have I made any glaring mistakes as this is the first list i've put together for FoG.

FC
TC
TC
TC
2 BGs of Xystophorai - 4 Cv, Arm, Sup, Drilled, Lancers, Swordsmen
1 BG of Light Cavalry - 4 LH, Unp, Ave, Drilled, Javelins, L.Spear
1 BG of Ptolemaic Phalangite - 12 HF, Prot, Ave, Drilled, Pikemen
1 BG of Thorakatoi - 8 HF, Arm, Ave, Drilled, Off Spear
1 BG of Ptolemaic Archers - 6 LF, Unp, Ave, Drilled, Bow
1 BG of Cretan Archers - 6 LF, Unp, Superior, Drilled, Bow
1 BG of Anthony's legionaries - 6 HF, Arm, Sup, Drilled, Imp Ft, Skilled Swordsmen
1 BG of Legionaries - 6 HF, Arm, Ave, Drilled, Imp Foot, Swordsmen
1 BG of Arab camelry - 4 Cv, Unp, Poor, Undrilled, Bow, Swordsmen, Camelry
1 BG of Thracians - 6 MF, Prot, Ave, Undrilled, Heavy Weapon
1 BG of Ptolemaic javelinmen - 8 LF, Unprot, Ave, Undrilled, Javelins, Light Spear.

ars_belli · Post by **ars_belli** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:21 pm

Looks good to me... should be both versatile and hard-hitting!

Cheers,
Scott

daleivan · Post by **daleivan** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:44 pm

Looks good to me, too. My LRRs are going to face a very similar Late Ptolemaic list when they are ready to take the field. Should be great fun.

Cheers,

Dale

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:18 pm

I used this variant of the Later Ptolemaic list in the 25mm tournament at Clevedon last year, which I won.

I would strongly recommend maxing out on the genuine Superior Roman legionaries (12) and Thorakitoi (12) (I managed this even in 650 points).

Forget the Arab camelry, they are poo. You don't need an FC, 4 TCs will be fine. Replace the Average legionaries with Superior ones. Take the maximum thorakitoi in preference to Thracians. (Although Thracians are good too if you are willing to drop something else).

Irmin · Post by **Irmin** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:43 am

rbodleyscott wrote:I used this variant of the Later Ptolemaic list in the 25mm tournament at Clevedon last year, which I won.

I would strongly recommend maxing out on the genuine Superior Roman legionaries (12) and Thorakitoi (12) (I managed this even in 650 points).

Forget the Arab camelry, they are poo. You don't need an FC, 4 TCs will be fine. Replace the Average legionaries with Superior ones. Take the maximum thorakitoi in preference to Thracians. (Although Thracians are good too if you are willing to drop something else).

Would you take the Thorakitoi as a 12 or 2 groups of 6?

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:51 am

I don't think you can take them as a 12

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:13 am

Irmin wrote:Would you take the Thorakitoi as a 12 or 2 groups of 6?

As Nik says, it has to be 2 x 6.

Irmin · Post by **Irmin** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:44 am

rbodleyscott wrote:
Irmin wrote:Would you take the Thorakitoi as a 12 or 2 groups of 6?
As Nik says, it has to be 2 x 6.

No problemo, I didn't have my Army list with me.

Revised list looks something like this

TC
TC
TC
TC
2 BGs of Xystophorai - 4 Cv, Arm, Sup, Drilled, Lancers, Swordsmen
1 BG of Light Cavalry - 4 LH, Unp, Ave, Drilled, Javelins, L.Spear
1 BG of Ptolemaic Phalangite - 12 HF, Prot, Ave, Drilled, Pikemen
2 BG of Thorakatoi - 6 HF, Arm, Ave, Drilled, Off Spear
1 BG of Ptolemaic Archers - 6 LF, Unp, Ave, Drilled, Bow
1 BG of Cretan Archers - 6 LF, Unp, Superior, Drilled, Bow
2 BG of Anthony's legionaries - 6 HF, Arm, Sup, Drilled, Imp Ft, Skilled Swordsmen
1 BG of Thracians - 6 MF, Prot, Ave, Undrilled, Heavy Weapon
1 BG of Ptolemaic javelinmen - 6 LF, Unprot, Ave, Undrilled, Javelins, Light Spear

falls 4pts under 800

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:17 am

Irmin wrote:TC
TC
TC
TC
2 BGs of Xystophorai - 4 Cv, Arm, Sup, Drilled, Lancers, Swordsmen
1 BG of Light Cavalry - 4 LH, Unp, Ave, Drilled, Javelins, L.Spear
1 BG of Ptolemaic Phalangite - 12 HF, Prot, Ave, Drilled, Pikemen
2 BG of Thorakatoi - 6 HF, Arm, Ave, Drilled, Off Spear
1 BG of Ptolemaic Archers - 6 LF, Unp, Ave, Drilled, Bow
1 BG of Cretan Archers - 6 LF, Unp, Superior, Drilled, Bow
2 BG of Anthony's legionaries - 6 HF, Arm, Sup, Drilled, Imp Ft, Skilled Swordsmen
1 BG of Thracians - 6 MF, Prot, Ave, Undrilled, Heavy Weapon
1 BG of Ptolemaic javelinmen - 6 LF, Unprot, Ave, Undrilled, Javelins, Light Spear

Looks pretty good to me, although I would take the thorakitai as MF - allowing the army to dominate the terrain.

Irmin · Post by **Irmin** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:38 am

rbodleyscott wrote:
Looks pretty good to me, although I would take the thorakitai as MF - allowing the army to dominate the terrain.

Many thanks for all the comments.

Now all i need is to find the best figures to make the list.

whitehorses · Post by **whitehorses** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:54 am

Tin Soldier?

robertthebruce · Post by **robertthebruce** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:21 am

There is a guy in my club who is playing this army with a lot of Poor Pikes, I think 4 Bgs of 8 poor pikes and 2 more Bgs of 8 average pikes.

Poor grade it´s not a problem for him, if he must to re-roll all the 6s, he can roll a 6s again, it´s incredible. Two weeks ago, he takes a cohesion test with -4, he roll 6 and 6, he re-roll, both dices, and get a 5 and a 6, amazing

Cheers

David

ars_belli · Post by **ars_belli** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:59 pm

Does he bring his own "special" dice?

cheers,
Scott

batesmotel · Post by **batesmotel** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:52 pm

Out of curiosity, does anyone know of any historical evidence that the Ptolemaic phalanx was still in use in the first century B.C.E. ? The on line translation of Caesar's Alexandrian Wars that I found certainly doesn't seem to refer to any troops that would fit that classification. <http>

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:25 pm

batesmotel wrote:Out of curiosity, does anyone know of any historical evidence that the Ptolemaic phalanx was still in use in the first century B.C.E. ? The on line translation of Caesar's Alexandrian Wars that I found certainly doesn't seem to refer to any troops that would fit that classification. <http>

I am not aware of any evidence that it was, nor of any evidence that it wasn't. Hence the list allows some, but not many.

Marcus_Antonius · Post by **Marcus_Antonius** » Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:57 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
batesmotel wrote:Out of curiosity, does anyone know of any historical evidence that the Ptolemaic phalanx was still in use in the first century B.C.E. ? The on line translation of Caesar's Alexandrian Wars that I found certainly doesn't seem to refer to any troops that would fit that classification. <http>
I am not aware of any evidence that it was, nor of any evidence that it wasn't. Hence the list allows some, but not many.

Your not going to find any pikes in the armies of Anthony and Cleopatra, although in the slightly earlier period is could be possible.

Irmin · Post by **Irmin** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:37 am

Marcus_Antonius wrote:
rbodleyscott wrote:
batesmotel wrote:Out of curiosity, does anyone know of any historical evidence that the Ptolemaic phalanx was still in use in the first century B.C.E. ? The on line translation of Caesar's Alexandrian Wars that I found certainly doesn't seem to refer to any troops that would fit that classification. <http>
I am not aware of any evidence that it was, nor of any evidence that it wasn't. Hence the list allows some, but not many.
Your not going to find any pikes in the armies of Anthony and Cleopatra, although in the slightly earlier period is could be possible.

If I remove the Phalangites that brings me to 722pts and the list below.

TC
TC
TC
TC
2 BGs of Xystophorai - 4 Cv, Arm, Sup, Drilled, Lancers, Swordsmen
1 BG of Light Cavalry - 4 LH, Unp, Ave, Drilled, Javelins, L.Spear
2 BG of Thorakatoi - 6 HF, Arm, Ave, Drilled, Off Spear
1 BG of Cretan Archers - 6 LF, Unp, Superior, Drilled, Bow
2 BG of Anthony's legionaries - 6 HF, Arm, Sup, Drilled, Imp Ft, Skilled Swordsmen
1 BG of Thracians - 6 MF, Prot, Ave, Undrilled, Heavy Weapon
1 BG of Ptolemaic javelinmen - 6 LF, Unprot, Ave, Undrilled, Javelins, Light Spear
1 BG of Ptolemaic Archers - 6 LF, Unp, Ave, Drilled, Bow

The options for the remaining 78 pts are:
a. 4 more Ptolemaic LF with bow, slinger javelin
b. making the Ptolemaic LF as 4's and ading 2 units of them.
c. adding Cretan MF, protected, Poor, drilled, light spear @ 4pts per base
d. Bolt Shooter heavy Artillery
e. Arab camelry, unprot, poor, undrilled, bow, swordsmen

not sure which adds the most to the army.

Also I'm consieringrunning the Legionaries as 3x4 rather than 2x6 how much of a difference will that make.

expendablecinc · Post by **expendablecinc** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:01 am

whitehorses wrote:Tin Soldier?

If you get tin soldioer make sure its the whole army as they dont mix with anything. And look like smurfs.

I'd go xyston but again get the whole army. Use principate roman triari with the feathers cut off at thorakitai.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:10 am

expendablecinc wrote:
I'd go xyston but again get the whole army. Use principate roman triari with the feathers cut off at thorakitai.

You also realy need to replace the shield with a thyreos otherwise all you have is triarii sans creasts - the Roman scutum being different to the Greek thyreos

madcam2us · Post by **madcam2us** » Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:55 pm

FYI here is my version:

2x4 Cv arm sup drill lance/swd
1x4 Cv arm sup undrilled lt sp/swd
1x8 MF arm avg drill OS
1x4 HF arm avg drill if/swd "romanized"
1x6 MF pro avg undrill HW Thracian
1x8 LF unp sup drill bow Cretan
1x8 LF unp avg undrill bow
1x6 LF unp avg undrill bow
1x4 LH unp avg drilled jav/lt spr
2x4 HF arm avg drilled IF/swd
1x4 HF arm sup drilled IF/swd

IC Marc Anthony
2x TC

In hindsight I would probably demote Marc to a TC and with the extra points make the roman foot Sup and add a 4th TC.

No real reason to take the Pk, IMO.

Madcam