Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

[adiekmann]

Jap fighter pilots discuss how to attack a B-17, I never realised B-17's were so small..

I know you are joking , but when I stood next to an - honest - to - god B-17 sitting on a runway ten feet away , I was shocked at how small it was.

Many years ago I was modelling a Mosquito for a documentary proposal. I spent ages getting all the details right from books, film and online resources. Even got the restoration guys in New Zealand to send me a load of cockpit shots so I could get the canopy frame right for the pilots eye view.
Eventually I twigged that a museum not so far away ( that I'd never heard of ) actually had a Mossie in bits in a hangar so I took my wife down so I could get some more useful reference and damn was it tiny. I'd spent ages obsessing over the form of particular panels only to realise that in real life they were so small I needn't worry. And I'm talking relatively big panels like the engine fairing and wheel covers.

As for a Spitfire .. I wouldn't fit in due to my height ( 6'1/2") and I'm too broad. I've seen small people sit in them in ordinary civvy clothes and there's next to no visibility. You can't properly turn to see over your shoulder as you bang your head on the canopy and your shoulders are locked in place. Apparently the 109s were even smaller. That they could shoot anyone down at all is a minor miracle and as for landing....

P

If that is true, then how in the world did author and former RAF pilot Roald Dahl fit into and fight in a Hawker Hurricane??? I know he describes himself being extremely cramped in the cockpit, but he was something like 6'6"! Unless the Hurricane's cockpit was bigger than that of the Spitfire, but I doubt it. The only single seat fighter from WW2 that I am aware of that had a famously roomy cockpit was the P-47 Thunderbolt.

[Patrick Ward]

If that is true, then how in the world did author and former RAF pilot Roald Dahl fit into and fight in a Hawker Hurricane??? I know he describes himself being extremely cramped in the cockpit, but he was something like 6'6"! Unless the Hurricane's cockpit was bigger than that of the Spitfire, but I doubt it. The only single seat fighter from WW2 that I am aware of that had a famously roomy cockpit was the P-47 Thunderbolt.

We've got quite a few museum piece Spitfires round here and theres one you can almost climb in as part of a restoration project in Wales. It. is. tiny.

This is part of the documentary that first made me realise their size .. a modern RAF pilot sits in them and gives his opinion
Heres the Me109 part
https://youtu.be/EgvfklVzYZo

And the Spitfire part
https://youtu.be/eBCnsjuCExk?t=339

and here's another 109 to prove me wrong. I have to assume this guy is quite small.
https://youtu.be/JGhMGQst4lo?t=533

Pat

[SineMora]

As someone who is 6' 7" (204 cm), I'd never have made a good pilot. Or submarine sailor. Or indeed anything else made for short people

[Retributarr]

These aircraft are made for people who's height is between 5 feet and 5+1/2 feet [Max]. Roughly... slightly taller than a meter and a half. Napoleon Bonaparte would have fit quite well in something like this.

[ADMIRAL3]

How about working to improve the game sound (tracked vehicles, artillery, fightings etc.) ?

[George_Parr]

These aircraft are made for people who's height is between 5 feet and 5+1/2 feet [Max]. Roughly... slightly taller than a meter and a half. Napoleon Bonaparte would have fit quite well in something like this.

Napoleon wasn't small though, that's a myth. He merely looked small because his Guard only allowed for large people to serve. Another bit of confusion came from the british foot being 2cm shorter than the french unit, which if not accounted for made Napoleon 10cm shorter than he actually was.

He's generally considered to have stood at a bit above 5 foot 6, or 168cm, which was an average size for that time.

[KesaAnna]

How about working to improve the game sound (tracked vehicles, artillery, fightings etc.) ?

I hate to sound too derogatory , I'm sure game companies hear enough complaints as it is , and I really can't think of a more polite way of describing it ;

Sometimes when I move my infantry , it sounds , for all the world , like I imagine cockroaches skittering along would sound. That particular sound just doesn't work ,

unless it is a subtle , underhanded dig at Prussian militarism .

Even a grossly stereotyped goose - stepping sound would be better.

---

So far , we are still on units you would like to see

So ;

yes , unhistorical , but please allow Italian troops to buy German half - tracks . Please . The lack of half - tracks really handicaps the Italians.

They were already obsolete , and woefully impractical , and in the French case , the tank was really only a propaganda display ,

So the issue of core slots , unit statistics , and whether a player would actually ever buy them , might be problematical ,

but I would like to see the French https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Char_2C

and the Russian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-35

[voxr]

Let’s move on to this week’s topic; anti-air!

As compared to the first instalment, AA can provide support up to their range (maximum of 4 if on a hill, which is massive), small-calibre guns have access to close defence, all of them can now switch to a ‘ground’ mode, and they mostly deal suppression (unless Anti-Air Veteran is taken). These changes have made AA an essential unit, and I usually try to have 2 (1 small caliber & 1 large) covering each battlegroup.

Compared to fighters they are more prestige-intensive (even small caliber AA is very expensive, especially since organic transport is not really negotiable) but generally offer better slot economy. I also find fighters are better used to escort bombers/run air superiority rather than running cover over your own ground forces.

Couple of units I feel are deserving of a special mention, in no particular order;

For actual air defence, the 2 cm Flakvierling is incredible. It’s available very early (Norway, I believe, and in Russia/Africa for people running Retrograde), uses close defence for combat calculations, has 2x Rapid Fire, and costs only a single core slot. It’s not that efficient against strategic bombers but those are more annoying rather than actively devastating for your ground troops. Hard attack is on the low side (10, so 0% kill probability on Matilda II’s or anything tougher) but serviceable for emergency anti-soft work throughout the war, especially with Rapid Fire. 2 range is enough if care is taken in positioning. The 7/1 is essentially a Flakvierling on half-tracks at the cost of an extra slot which can be useful for active air defence, using the extra mobility to chase down enemy fighters and inflict a few points of suppression before your own fighters move in.

I find the vaunted 8.8 is actually better suited for anti-tank work. It’s incredibly expensive (you can pay close to a thousand prestige for battle replacements), and the monstrous air attack stat is overkill. However, the 28 (!) hard attack is essentially a 100% kill against anything weaker than a KV-1. On the balance of probabilities an entirely green 8.8 will take 5 points off the enemy every time it fires in support. I actually don’t buy any towed AT because they are all strictly inferior to the 8.8 in ground mode. Sure, dedicated AT’s have a move of 2 as compared to 1, but using those on the offense is usually not recommended because of the initiative penalty (of 10, I believe). On the defence, in a supporting role, they have roughly the same mobility.

Notable captured units include the SU-6 (Soviet tracked heavy AA with a range of 2 and a few points less in air/hard attack), the T-90 (I’m sure all players of PC1 remember these fondly) which is tracked (as opposed to half-tracked for the 7/1, so better in snow/mud) but only gives 1.5x instead of 2x Rapid Fire. For Wehr units, you get access late on to the Gepard (single 2 cm mounted on tracked Pz. 38(t) chassis, so 1.5x Rapid Fire instead of 2x) and the Wirbelwind (Flakvierling on a Pz. IV chassis).

The majority of my air defence contingent is towed throughout the war, though I do keep a few tracked units in reserve for battles where the ground state is bad.

[Kerensky]

For actual air defence, the 2 cm Flakvierling is incredible. It’s available very early (Norway, I believe, and in Russia/Africa for people running Retrograde), uses close defence for combat calculations, has 2x Rapid Fire, and costs only a single core slot. It’s not that efficient against strategic bombers but those are more annoying rather than actively devastating for your ground troops. Hard attack is on the low side (10, so 0% kill probability on Matilda II’s or anything tougher) but serviceable for emergency anti-soft work throughout the war, especially with Rapid Fire. 2 range is enough if care is taken in positioning. The 7/1 is essentially a Flakvierling on half-tracks at the cost of an extra slot which can be useful for active air defence, using the extra mobility to chase down enemy fighters and inflict a few points of suppression before your own fighters move in.

2cm Flak 30 is a fantastic unit... during the Spanish Civil War.



15 OS for 2 slots, giving AA support or AT support, and all around decent SA and HA values? Yes please.

[Horseman]

Good old AA guns.

In my first campaign I used only 2. Both started as 37mm towed and became 88s pretty quickly as I found I was using them in AT mode more often. I agree that having a few around is important as they offer a measure of defence for your ground troops whilst your fighters do their job in winning the battle for the skies. Important to note that a single AA can cover more units than a single fighter.

I briefly upgraded to 128mm for the invasion of America but found that it was just a prestige sink - the 88s already had ample air attack. I agree with your assessment of the Flakvierling, if I'd paid more attention to various unit traits early on I would definitely of have had one of those in place of an 88....maybe even both. Tac bombers pose the biggest threat to you ground troops and these things murder tac bombers and just one unit can convince enemy planes to not even attack (20 shots!)

In my second campaign (currently in AAR section) I have taken denied airforce & AA veteran. I was expecting to have 6 or maybe even more AA units. So far in Afrika and I still only have 4 (2x88 2xFlakvierling halftracks) And that had proven to be plenty. Tacs and fighters just don't attack if in range of the 20mm and even if its "only" my 88s protecting a unit I can expect to shoot down 5+ strength points. You could probably get away with less if you were willing to suffer the occasional bombing run before killing the planes. I only need 4 to ensure my AA umbrella covers everyone at all times!

In summary:
88s are almost certainly overkill (early game at least) unless you plan to use them in AT mode a lot. 37mm would suffice for killing the occasional strat bomber. But if you have fighters I'd probably leave these guys at home entirely.
the 20mm Flakvierling are amazing. Half track mounted allow them to get to where you need them to shoot at enemy planes but if you were mainly concerned about defensive fire then towed would suffice and save you a slot.
Anything else seems either overkill (128mm) or just plain inferior.

One other important thing about halftracked Flakvierling - in a pinch they can deploy in AT mode and have limited effectiveness against infantry.

[PoorOldSpike]

Let’s move on to this week’s topic; anti-air!
Compared to fighters they are more prestige-intensive (even small caliber AA is very expensive, especially since organic transport is not really negotiable) but generally offer better slot economy..

Whatever floats yer boat..
Personally I usually avoid buying AA units for the simple reason they rarely shoot anything down, they only "tickle" planes by knocking off a strength point or two, and/or inflicting a little bit of suppression.
I usually keep any large-calibre big-hitter AA's that the game gives me, but I routinely disband any useless small-calibre AA's and use their freed-up prestige and slots to buy something more potent like tanks or fighters or infantry etc.

[voxr]

2cm Flak 30 is a fantastic unit... during the Spanish Civil War.



15 OS for 2 slots, giving AA support or AT support, and all around decent SA and HA values? Yes please.

I actually used the 2 cm Flak 30 from Poland through France as I'm doing Retrograde on my current campaign. I got Flakvierlings as soon as they became available though.

But that is some monstrous kill count on your unit.

[voxr]

Good old AA guns.

In my first campaign I used only 2. Both started as 37mm towed and became 88s pretty quickly as I found I was using them in AT mode more often. I agree that having a few around is important as they offer a measure of defence for your ground troops whilst your fighters do their job in winning the battle for the skies. Important to note that a single AA can cover more units than a single fighter.

I briefly upgraded to 128mm for the invasion of America but found that it was just a prestige sink - the 88s already had ample air attack. I agree with your assessment of the Flakvierling, if I'd paid more attention to various unit traits early on I would definitely of have had one of those in place of an 88....maybe even both. Tac bombers pose the biggest threat to you ground troops and these things murder tac bombers and just one unit can convince enemy planes to not even attack (20 shots!)

In my second campaign (currently in AAR section) I have taken denied airforce & AA veteran. I was expecting to have 6 or maybe even more AA units. So far in Afrika and I still only have 4 (2x88 2xFlakvierling halftracks) And that had proven to be plenty. Tacs and fighters just don't attack if in range of the 20mm and even if its "only" my 88s protecting a unit I can expect to shoot down 5+ strength points. You could probably get away with less if you were willing to suffer the occasional bombing run before killing the planes. I only need 4 to ensure my AA umbrella covers everyone at all times!

In summary:
88s are almost certainly overkill (early game at least) unless you plan to use them in AT mode a lot. 37mm would suffice for killing the occasional strat bomber. But if you have fighters I'd probably leave these guys at home entirely.
the 20mm Flakvierling are amazing. Half track mounted allow them to get to where you need them to shoot at enemy planes but if you were mainly concerned about defensive fire then towed would suffice and save you a slot.
Anything else seems either overkill (128mm) or just plain inferior.

One other important thing about halftracked Flakvierling - in a pinch they can deploy in AT mode and have limited effectiveness against infantry.

I find the AI is quite erratic when it comes to attacking through support fire. Sometimes they'll suicide into armour backed by 88's but at others they'll hold. Same goes for air units.

Something I forgot to mention about the 88; sitting at 3 range attacking AI air units don't spot these and this is often the most reliable way to bait the enemy into taking defensive fire. Granted I generally prefer tactical bombers not to attack at all though since even with 5 suppressed they'll do 2 or 3 damage to soft targets like artillery, which is annoying to say the least.

[Horseman]

Good old AA guns.

In my first campaign I used only 2. Both started as 37mm towed and became 88s pretty quickly as I found I was using them in AT mode more often. I agree that having a few around is important as they offer a measure of defence for your ground troops whilst your fighters do their job in winning the battle for the skies. Important to note that a single AA can cover more units than a single fighter.

I briefly upgraded to 128mm for the invasion of America but found that it was just a prestige sink - the 88s already had ample air attack. I agree with your assessment of the Flakvierling, if I'd paid more attention to various unit traits early on I would definitely of have had one of those in place of an 88....maybe even both. Tac bombers pose the biggest threat to you ground troops and these things murder tac bombers and just one unit can convince enemy planes to not even attack (20 shots!)

In my second campaign (currently in AAR section) I have taken denied airforce & AA veteran. I was expecting to have 6 or maybe even more AA units. So far in Afrika and I still only have 4 (2x88 2xFlakvierling halftracks) And that had proven to be plenty. Tacs and fighters just don't attack if in range of the 20mm and even if its "only" my 88s protecting a unit I can expect to shoot down 5+ strength points. You could probably get away with less if you were willing to suffer the occasional bombing run before killing the planes. I only need 4 to ensure my AA umbrella covers everyone at all times!

In summary:
88s are almost certainly overkill (early game at least) unless you plan to use them in AT mode a lot. 37mm would suffice for killing the occasional strat bomber. But if you have fighters I'd probably leave these guys at home entirely.
the 20mm Flakvierling are amazing. Half track mounted allow them to get to where you need them to shoot at enemy planes but if you were mainly concerned about defensive fire then towed would suffice and save you a slot.
Anything else seems either overkill (128mm) or just plain inferior.

One other important thing about halftracked Flakvierling - in a pinch they can deploy in AT mode and have limited effectiveness against infantry.

I find the AI is quite erratic when it comes to attacking through support fire. Sometimes they'll suicide into armour backed by 88's but at others they'll hold. Same goes for air units.

Something I forgot to mention about the 88; sitting at 3 range attacking AI air units don't spot these and this is often the most reliable way to bait the enemy into taking defensive fire. Granted I generally prefer tactical bombers not to attack at all though since even with 5 suppressed they'll do 2 or 3 damage to soft targets like artillery, which is annoying to say the least.

Yeah I've seen some suicide runs too.....I play on 100% random so I have to check logs sometimes to see if I was just lucky and quite often the result is "nope AI just dumb" Although my 88 hitting 10/10 shots on a fighter in the low countries was definitely luck.

[voxr]

Let’s move on to this week’s topic; anti-air!
Compared to fighters they are more prestige-intensive (even small caliber AA is very expensive, especially since organic transport is not really negotiable) but generally offer better slot economy..

Whatever floats yer boat..
Personally I usually avoid buying AA units for the simple reason they rarely shoot anything down, they only "tickle" planes by knocking off a strength point or two, and/or inflicting a little bit of suppression.
I usually keep any large-calibre big-hitter AA's that the game gives me, but I routinely disband any useless small-calibre AA's and use their freed-up prestige and slots to buy something more potent like tanks or fighters or infantry etc.

I think AA units are actually better at covering your ground units than fighters. As noted by Horseman they cover more units.

Unless you run a huge complement of fighters you have to make a hard choice between bomber escort, hunting for enemy air, and covering your own troops. Having AA allows you to leave your fighters to do the first 2. Rarely can they do all at the same time. For myself the priority is enemy fighters, bomber escort, enemy tactical air, enemy strategic bombers, then covering my own troops, in order.

Once the skies are clear AA is used in the anti-tank role, to cap hexes, or complete encirclements/force surrenders, so I get good use out of them throughout the battle.

The Flakvierling also does more than tickle enemy air as even at baseline experience it's hitting 10 shots against close defence (for tactical & fighters at least) which is very good odds for suppression.

Another factor is that they severely reduce losses for your own fighters. The AI will often abort bombing runs due to AA, park a bomber there, and send a fighter to escort. On your phase you can open up with AA first, suppressing the fighters, which then allows you to clear both units out with minimal loss to your own JG.

[Horseman]

Let’s move on to this week’s topic; anti-air!
Compared to fighters they are more prestige-intensive (even small caliber AA is very expensive, especially since organic transport is not really negotiable) but generally offer better slot economy..

Whatever floats yer boat..
Personally I usually avoid buying AA units for the simple reason they rarely shoot anything down, they only "tickle" planes by knocking off a strength point or two, and/or inflicting a little bit of suppression.
I usually keep any large-calibre big-hitter AA's that the game gives me, but I routinely disband any useless small-calibre AA's and use their freed-up prestige and slots to buy something more potent like tanks or fighters or infantry etc.

I think AA units are actually better at covering your ground units than fighters. As noted by Horseman they cover more units.

Unless you run a huge complement of fighters you have to make a hard choice between bomber escort, hunting for enemy air, and covering your own troops. Having AA allows you to leave your fighters to do the first 2. Rarely can they do all at the same time. For myself the priority is enemy fighters, bomber escort, enemy tactical air, enemy strategic bombers, then covering my own troops, in order.

Once the skies are clear AA is used in the anti-tank role, to cap hexes, or complete encirclements/force surrenders, so I get good use out of them throughout the battle.

The Flakvierling also does more than tickle enemy air as even at baseline experience it's hitting 10 shots against close defence (for tactical & fighters at least) which is very good odds for suppression.

Another factor is that they severely reduce losses for your own fighters. The AI will often abort bombing runs due to AA, park a bomber there, and send a fighter to escort. On your phase you can open up with AA first, suppressing the fighters, which then allows you to clear both units out with minimal loss to your own JG.

I think what we're seeing here is a difference in play style depending on what you're playing.

Pooroldspike plays mainly (only?) random scenarios - here loses from air are more easily replaced and I agree I'd much rather have more fighters to quickly win the air war, which in turn means my bombers get to do their job unmolested.

When playing in the campaign - you really don't want those 3-4 strength hits on your artillery, its expensive to replace! Therefore those AA units become much more valuable.

Playing a campaign - My units are my children! I want to see them prosper and grow and not get hurt.

Playing a standalone scenario/random map - My units are mere chess pieces to be used in what ever manner I choose to achieve victory (And those who have played chess with me know how quickly I'll throw those pieces away to get what I want!)

[PoorOldSpike]

I think what we're seeing here is a difference in play style depending on what you're playing.
Pooroldspike plays mainly (only?) random scenarios..

Yup, and I only play 'Small' size battles which means I don't have many units/prestige/slots to play around with, so I have to be on the top of my game every step of the way to avoid humiliating defeat at the hands of the AI.
I sometimes envy you guys who play big scenarios with dozens of units to play around with where losses can be more easily absorbed, whereas in my small battles the loss of just a few units hurts real bad (sniffle).
In fact the AI has already beat me twice today and it's still only early afternoon, so i'll have a cup of tea, pout and sulk a bit while watching my new 'Mothman Prophecies" DVD, then crank up another random battle-

"The soldier tired of wars, alarms, forswears the clang of hostile arms and scorns the spear and shield,
but if the brazen trumpet sound, he burns with conquest to be crown'd, and dares again the field" -Thomas Augustine Arne 1710-1778

[adiekmann]

I totally agree with most of what's already been said. My last campaign play through was with "Denied Air Force" and I hardly noticed. With three AA units from pretty early on, AA Veteran, and a double-attack on one of my 88s, I pulverized the enemy's air force. I missed it most when naval units were involved, but I played the "loser" path back to Berlin by choice so no Sea Lion

Yes, 88s are expensive, but I still value them for the multi-purpose and range as already explained above. Likewise, I love me the quad 20mm in half track form. It's devastating against fighters and tac bombers, where the 88s handle strat bombers and...well everything!

AA are much more valuable than in PC1. But even without AA Veteran, I like to add (if I have it) the lethal attack hero to an AA gun (particularly to an 88), and it mimics to a lesser effect the AA Veteran. And once they have a two or three stars of experience, they too are quite deadly, just not early in the game. Patience! Use them against ground units in France, for instance, to build up that experience which I find they do quite rapidly.

PAKs: I do like the 5cm towed gun until better self-propelled versions are available. They are cheap, have good HA, and the 5cm has a 2 movement. AT has been made more useful too, but not to the same degree that AA guns have.

[adiekmann]

To PoorOldSpike:

Offbeat question for you since I see you list Plymouth as your location. I've been storming through a series of fantasy novels where the main characters are primarily set in the west end of Cornwall. The author uses all real place names and descriptions and the like, including beer. I've learned a lot about Cornwall through fiction!

So, my question for you is a beer question since I can't find it here where I live to evaluate for myself. He claims that the best ale in the world is Cornish brewed and names two specifically in all the books: Doom Bar and Tribute. Any comment regarding this that can satisfy my curiosity?

Now I just need to find out where the best pretzels can be found (Germany?) and I'll be all set for Axis Operations...

[Horseman]

To PoorOldSpike:

Offbeat question for you since I see you list Plymouth as your location. I've been storming through a series of fantasy novels where the main characters are primarily set in the west end of Cornwall. The author uses all real place names and descriptions and the like, including beer. I've learned a lot about Cornwall through fiction!

So, my question for you is a beer question since I can't find it here where I live to evaluate for myself. He claims that the best ale in the world is Cornish brewed and names two specifically in all the books: Doom Bar and Tribute. Any comment regarding this that can satisfy my curiosity?

Now I just need to find out where the best pretzels can be found (Germany?) and I'll be all set for Axis Operations...

You know Plymouth is in Devon?