Dodge vs Block

[tex]

I have recently been selecting the Bolck option and its enhancements more and more but I see that others seem to prefer Dodge.

My perception is that Block is better than Endurance (so I tend now to select swordmanship and Block) but I am not sure of its relative merits compared with Dodge.

Has anyone else found this or got any thoughts?

[honvedseg]

Block is fairly straight-forward: it adds a bonus to your armor value. Dodge is a little more vague, to my understanding (or misunderstanding), since I am not certain whether the -X Damage is subtracted from the damage that YOU do, or from incoming attacks. I prefer to use Block, third in priority only to Swordsman and Feint (except when special promotions occur, such as Disciplined or Skilled Thrower, etc.). In most cases, the best defense is still a good offense.

[Redpossum]

Well, Block adds Melee Armor, yes.

And Dodge adds Agility, while imposing a small penalty to Melee Attack (chance to hit) at levels 1 and 3.

Until recently, I have been convinced that Agility was worthless, broken, didn't work worth a shit. But now I am starting to have second thoughts about it, mostly as a result of getting my ass kicked in CoM

I am currently trying to max Dodge (Master Dodge) and buy best boots possible, but it doesn't seem to be helping much. So maybe I was right the first time.

I would still like to see a definitive statement by Slitherine that they have carefully examined and tested Agility, and that it is indeed "working as intended". But they've never made any such statement. On the past occasions when I've raised this issue, the only response I've gotten is an explanation of how Agility is supposed to work, which of course I already understand quite well

[IainMcNeil]

Yes it works as far as we know!

[pyros]

Well, Block adds Melee Armor, yes.

And Dodge adds Agility, while imposing a small penalty to Melee Attack (chance to hit) at levels 1 and 3.

Until recently, I have been convinced that Agility was worthless, broken, didn't work worth a shit. But now I am starting to have second thoughts about it, mostly as a result of getting my ass kicked in CoM

I am currently trying to max Dodge (Master Dodge) and buy best boots possible, but it doesn't seem to be helping much. So maybe I was right the first time.

Hi,

From what I remember Agility was working fine

cheers,
Pyros

[Redpossum]

I go back and forth, as far as Agility.

I think the key is your starting Agility. For Militia, with a starting Agility of 10, even Master Dodge and Boots 3 do not help much. But for a unit with a higher starting Agility, they do make a noticeable difference.

But I still think armor makes a bigger, more noticeable difference in damage taken.

[tora_tora_tora]

Talikng about Agility, Feints is another problem which I don't know for sure.

The explanation with feints is somewhat vague and it could mean
if your troop dodge enemy blow and only if your troop hit his opponents, then damage is increased with certain points.
Or simply add damage points no matter whether your troop dodge or not.

And Fanatics' agility is relatively high, it's 25. Though some cavalry are much more high. Nobles' agility is 30.


Another matter I'm wondering is armour penetration.
As hordes of militia surrounds opposing force commander and hit him, in most cases dameges are 1.
And while yellow damage float on his head, enemy commander do nothing but endure milita's blows.
So while taking damage, one cannot attack, or even could not try to strike back at his enemy?
Well, this could not be so, becaouse when my legate is surrounded and order him to retreat, in some cases he manage to break out,
and was able to escape.

[honvedseg]

Feint appears to add directly to the damage done in combat, which is a VERY powerful promotion. Check your units' status bars before and after increasing that skill, and you will see the Melee Damage bar increase.

Armor penetration works regardless of whether or not the attacker's Melee Damage number is high enough to penetrate the defender's armor. If you have a high enough Melee Damage, you don't really need Armor Penetration, but for low-level peasants that measly 1 point is about all they can do against a well-protected opponent.

I suppose that the opposing commander in your situation either had other things on his mind, or was completely out of his. If he was actually fighting, a lonely set of red numbers should have drifted up every so often amid the sea of yellow 1s.

As for Agility, it seems pretty useless at low levels, so it doesn't help a heavy infantry unit a lot, but it appears to have increased the survivability of my skirmishers somewhat, where they can't even buy enough armor to be worth the trouble.

[Redpossum]

Honvedseg -

Good point about units that can't buy much armor. If they have a relatively high starting agility, the Agility option should work.

I have noticed from a few posts that some folks seem to be under the impression that boots add movement speed. Erm...

The other possible defensive option is the "Protection From" skills. but I'm even more skeptical about those that Agility...Or maybe both would yield a workable survival strategy?

[thorwald]

I just completed an interesting experiment which may take this thread in potentially a new direction.

I configured 2 Units (Triari in this Case since they dont have the missle variable) and configured them at maximum exp and equip for head to head play.

I Configured one Triari on ALL OFFENCE. Every single Offensive Bonus Possible as it leveled. I configured the other Triari as ALL DEFENCE. Every possible bonus to defence possible.

Of course as you may have guessed the ALL OFFENCE Hoplite force DESTROYED the ALL DEFENCE Hoplite force.

Then I made one 50 50. And guess what ...it ANNIHILATED the ALL OFFENCE force. In my 50 50 choice I went Block, Sword, Feint, Anti Inf, Prot Inf Not neccesarily in that order. But interestingly enough in a fight vs very heavy infantry I chose no Armor penetration and they still kicked the hell out of a unit that had full armor penetration, feint swords etc.

Which to me makes a lot of sence, since anyone that has ever done any real combat knows ...all offence while impressive looking is meat for the fodder if you are not covered defensively. The only time you can rely completely on total offence is if you truly know all the weaknesses and reaction potential of your opponent. I was a counter puncher in my younger days..always seemed to be the easiest way to take someone out. Feints Require that you are in some way natively superior to your opponent to start with. ~ This 'wisdom' only truly applies when the forces have relative parity though.

As far as Which to choose? Well I have been using an approach that is unconventional by today's 'common wisdom' and it seems to be working well. If the unit has a shield and has high agility and low armor I give it at least one level of block and continue its agility as far as it will go. In most battles I find that with Heavy units I take far more damage from Missle units than any other units type so I configure for missle protection often and early. In general If the unit has a Shield I configure it for block even the heavies it seems to make a big difference. But my Heavy infantry that have BOTH Block and Parry absolutely become invincible with Missle protection. But they usually dont get that till they are in thier high 20's and buy then I guess they would be pretty tough anyway>Shrug<. I wish there were a way to use our saved game armies in online play ..or to configure unlimited armies. With the current setup I cant even get one unit to high level. Then we could really see what 'ultimate' builds could do. Of course here is where someone that understands the combat engine from a coding perspective could step in and tell us how it works???

Also I agree that Equip makes for the biggest bang for the buck in defensive abilities, but equip + a little good D seems to make it a LOT better.

I will do some further experiments with dodge vs block for defence today and post my results.

[honvedseg]

I tried running one unit of Principes with the "standard" BLOCK, and another with "PROTECTION FROM INFANTRY", and sent them into as similar a set of situations as I could reasonably manage. They didn't fare all that much differently from each other against other infantry units, but the one with the "Protection" got chewed on by cav unit, where the "Blocker" just shrugged off a similar cav attack. It wasn't enough of a test to rule out random factors, but it kind of makes me lean toward the "Block" camp.

[firepowerjohan]

Block is better in close melee
Dodge is better against ranged attacks

Sometimes when enemy has very high melee damage and you have a low armour, dodge can be roughly equal to block in melee combat.

The opposite, when you have very high armour (higher than enemy melee damage) you will not benefit from better block, but instead from better dodge.

[scarfacetarraff]

Hm, I've ignored block and dodge so far in my first run through in the Roman campaign, even feint. I've been ramping up in other areas. I probably should use dodge before the elephants arrive.

[Redpossum]

Block is better in close melee
Dodge is better against ranged attacks

Sometimes when enemy has very high melee damage and you have a low armour, dodge can be roughly equal to block in melee combat.

The opposite, when you have very high armour (higher than enemy melee damage) you will not benefit from better block, but instead from better dodge.

Johan, thanks for the info, this is very useful.

Now, can you talk to us about how these skills work against the various "special" troop types in Cult of Mithras? For example, the "shadow " troops seem to ignore armor, so logically one would think Dodge would be a must-have. But when I tried this, even troops with Master Dodge and Boots 3 got shredded...

[IainMcNeil]

Actually dodge helps prevent melee attacks, not ranged ones. It increases your chance of avoiding a hit.

Block reduces the damage if a hit is scored.

Shadow warriors do not ignore armour, though their shadowy nature makes them very hard to hit with missile or melee weapons. Same for shadow knights.

Ghouls do not ignore armour, but do so much damage that their touch is usually fatal, though they have little armour and very few hit points, so are usually killed by a single hit themselves. They have no morale so fight to the last man...er... ghoul. They are a great target for your archers, but best to avoid fighting them hand to hand if possible, especially with your good troops as they will go down with one hit as easily as a peasant. High agility can help against these, as avoiding their touch is the crucial thing.

Skeleton warriors & archers. They are immune to missle weapons so dont let your troops waste their ammo on them. They never rout so will fight to the death (for a second time!). However they are just a bit girly at fighting.

Fire demons & Helephants burn their victims. Their burning touch penetrates armour. Another good choice for your missile troops and those without armour.

[firepowerjohan]

Block is better in close melee
Dodge is better against ranged attacks

Sometimes when enemy has very high melee damage and you have a low armour, dodge can be roughly equal to block in melee combat.

The opposite, when you have very high armour (higher than enemy melee damage) you will not benefit from better block, but instead from better dodge.

Johan, thanks for the info, this is very useful.

Now, can you talk to us about how these skills work against the various "special" troop types in Cult of Mithras? For example, the "shadow " troops seem to ignore armor, so logically one would think Dodge would be a must-have. But when I tried this, even troops with Master Dodge and Boots 3 got shredded...

It seems I confused you with my Slitherine Profile Logo. I am only involved in the Commander - Europe At War project, not the Legion series. Was just writing my view from my experience playing Legion Arena

I was wrong about dodge, dodge only protects in Melee not against ranged attacks so block should be superior to dodge unless in extreme situation.