Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

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voxr
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Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by voxr »

Had a quick look through the boards and there doesn't seem to be anything like this thus far, so thought I would get the ball rolling.

I would like to host a discussion on each of the unit types (or even individual units themselves, when the circumstances call for it) to gain some community insight and hopefully give newer players some tips/pitfalls to avoid.

With the new unit slot system in PC2 as opposed to the original, new equipment may no longer be a straight upgrade with regards to efficiency.

I will attempt to give an overview on the topic in question, along with any relevant stats or anecdotes from personal play, then it's up to you, dear readers, to participate. The primary focus will be on campaign play, which I assume is what most people will be playing. Also, given the absence of other faction campaigns for the current state of the game, Wehrmacht units will be taken as the baseline, though captured equipment will be mentioned if relevant. Prestige costs will not be factored in as I believe they are mostly irrelevant in the context of a reasonably skilled player.

First off I would like to start with the veritable god of war: artillery. These can be generally be split into a few broad categories as below;
  • Towed guns (7.5 cm FK nA, 10.5 cm leFH, 15 cm sFH, 17 cm K, 21 cm Mrs)
  • Self-propelled guns (ie. Sturmpanzer I Bison, Wespe, Hummel etc.)
  • Assault guns (Stug IIIB, StuH 42, Brummbar etc.)
  • Rocket artillery, both towed & self-propelled (Nebelwerfers, Wuhrfrahmen, Panzerwerfer etc.)
  • Special units (Karl-Gerat, Schwerer Gustav)

As a matter of personal playstyle I use only towed guns of 105 calibre and up. The 7.5 cm lacks range which makes it inconvenient, though many have managed to work around this. I must admit I have never actually used these, though I see how they could be useful fighting in predominantly hilly terrain which alleviates their primary shortcoming. The main draw would be the slot cost of 2 which is very cheap though I remain unconvinced because of the difficult set-up & relatively low punch.

The 10.5 cm is the next step up and one I usually employ in 2’s & 3’s once the fighting starts in Russia. They provide only infantry support, cost 3 slots, fire at range 3, and have a nice balance between power & ammunition to ensure your own units are adequately protected from infantry assault. These are very efficient in scenarios featuring urban combat/defensive scenarios where you need to hold city objectives. As a rule of thumb from mid-war (1941 on) your armour doesn’t need cover against infantry in the open & your infantry doesn’t need cover against armour in the rough. Special mention goes to the Soviet 122 mm M1938, which has the same traits, slot cost, and trades 1 ammo for slightly higher soft/hard attack.

Moving on, the 15 cm is notable for being the only unit in the roster which offers both artillery & AT support. Coming in at a slot cost of 4, identical range to the 10.5 cm, and a general bump in stats, its defining characteristic would be versatility. From observation, a lot of people use these as the backbone of their artillery corps throughout the war, though I prefer to take a different approach. I generally employ the 15 cm exclusively from Poland through to France, then gradually phase them out through upgrades in favour of the 10.5 cm. Early war the 15 cm generally has enough kick to cover your troops against enemy armour, though once the theatre shifts to the Eastern Front it begins to lack somewhat, especially against the more modern Soviet armour (T-34, KV-1 etc.). The burden of protection from armoured counter-attacks then shifts to the dedicated AT’s, heavy flak (like the 88) in AT mode, or large caliber guns like the 17/21 cm. Against infantry the 10.5 cm is entirely sufficient and allows me to spend slots elsewhere.

I’ll group the 17 cm & 21 cm together for simplicity’s sake since the only differences between them are slot costs (5 & 6 respectively) and a few points in soft/hard attack. They both come in range 4, provide AT support as with the 15 cm, but also provide counter-battery fire. These are adequate against armoured targets, feature ease of use due to range 4, and are very useful due to the counter-battery trait in minimising chip damage. On the first instance of counter-battery fire, your 17/21 cm is ‘un-masked’ and I have never seen an instance where the AI chooses to fire another gun within range for fear of retaliation. I usually buy an early one in Norway (only the 21 cm is available), bench it during Low Countries/France for lack of slots, then convert to the 17 cm once Barbarossa begins and gradually add more as the campaign progresses. Personal preference is for the 17 over the 21 since they both fill the same basic function and I usually prioritise slot savings.

Since this has turned out to be quite the wordy post I’ll leave discussion of other artillery for another time.
PoorOldSpike
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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by PoorOldSpike »

voxr wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:05 amAs a matter of personal playstyle I use only towed guns of 105 calibre and up...

Me too, as anything smaller is just a useless waste of cash and slots, and only tickles the enemy instead of hurting him.
In fact that approach also applies to tanks, infantry, AT, AA, fighters, bombers etc, I always buy the most lethal weapons I can get.
That's always been my philosophy in every wargame I've ever had over the past 37 years, namely-
"Never fear to use insanely overwhelming firepower, let the fear be your enemies"
because games are won or lost at the purchase screen..:)
voxr
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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by voxr »

PoorOldSpike wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:12 am
voxr wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:05 amAs a matter of personal playstyle I use only towed guns of 105 calibre and up...

Me too, as anything smaller is just a useless waste of cash and slots, and only tickles the enemy instead of hurting him.
In fact that approach also applies to tanks, infantry, AT, AA, fighters, bombers etc, I always buy the most lethal weapons I can get.
That's always been my philosophy in every wargame I've ever had over the past 37 years, namely-
"Never fear to use insanely overwhelming firepower, let the fear be your enemies"
because games are won or lost at the purchase screen..:)
For myself it's more to do with the thinking that 1 less slot doesn't make up for the range limitation. 2 range is a lot easier to work with on mobile artillery like the Sturmpanzer.

Regarding always using the best equipment I don't think that's strictly true anymore. I often defer upgrading to the long-barrelled IV's and keep the stumpies for a bit longer since the T-34/40 is a lot more efficient. Another example is how the Pz II is worth using over the early variants of IV in France due to Rapid Fire.

It's a lot more complicated now, as it should be, than in PC1 where it was almost always objectively better to upgrade to the latest equipment.
uneducated
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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by uneducated »

The 21cm Mrs (Missus?) is great fun on higher ground. It can cover a huge proportion of the map from there, but it is 6 slots. It works well with a Lethal Attack Hero (which converts suppression to casualties).

Like with ordering a pizza, an extra one inch diameter creates a huge amount more food on larger pizzas. Area = Pi x Radius squared.

1-1
2-4
3-9
4-16
5-25
6-36

Most of the time, you are assaulting in a particular direction, for example from the Left of the Map to the Right. You have cleared the ground to the Left and must attack units on the Right. This means that half the artillery's capability is wasted, as there is nothing on the Left to shoot. If you are defending though, Artillery has much more use, as you might be surrounded and attacked from all directions. The menace of counter battery fire dissuades the AI from firing. For best value, the Mrs. should be in the centre of a smaller, mountainous Map, on High Ground in a defensive role. The high ground helps its Entrenchment too. It has quite a lot of Ammunition too, so is able to dominate the battle space if several enemy Artillery units fire upon friendly units in Range.

Because the Range of the Mrs. is so long, it enjoys the pleasure of being able to shoot enemy artillery without them being able to return fire, as they might be out of range. If enemy artillery is approaching, the Mrs. can gain the first strike due to its superior reach, and this can help it win in an artillery duel.

Another Hero that loves the Mrs. is the Double Support (I can't remember its name.) It confers the ability to fire twice in support actions. The enemy artillery doesn't like this at all, and the Mrs. can effectively nullify all enemy artillery like this!

I also love my Mrs. because it is so good against tanks in an Anti-Tank role. Your advancing Units can clear the terrain around a victory Hex in a city. The rapid movement conferred on the Mrs. by a truck allows it to move very far from behind your lines right up to the front, to occupy the Flag in the centre of the city. Only something that can move far and attack would be able to recapture in the counter-attack, and that means tanks or recon vehicles. The Mrs. is great against armour.
voxr
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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by voxr »

uneducated wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:13 am The 21cm Mrs (Missus?)
The Mrs is short for Morser, which is actually German for mortar. Don't ask me why it's classified as such, though. If pressed I would probably say that it's because of its intended use against fortifications (most Wehr siege artillery were considered mortars ie. Karl-Gerat) and its relatively short range (not reflected in game) when compared to the 17 (which received the self-explanatory designation Kanone).

I prefer the 17 myself for reasons detailed in my OP but agreed that counter-battery and the extra range (especially on high ground) is very useful.

You should always love your missus!
PoorOldSpike
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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by PoorOldSpike »

voxr wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:30 amRegarding always using the best equipment I don't think that's strictly true anymore..
In multiplayer I bet that philosophy is music to your opponents ears..:)
Kerensky
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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by Kerensky »

Best equipment (highest stats) are conductive to the campaign environment, because it lasts so long progressing from scenario after scenario.
Most efficient (lowest cost with still decent stats) are conductive to multiplayer environment, because it doesn't matter if 99% of your forces die, as long as the remaining 1% controls the objective at the end of the scenario.

That said, I still prefer the 105 in campaign mode. 2 range arty is just too inconvenient to use, as others have pointed out. I like the cheapest package that'll get me 3 range for my artillery.
Maybe later on I'll pick up a single 4 range gun, if I get double fire or slot cost reduction heroes.

But artillery is dangerous to overvalue. It's overly slot hungry, and doesn't actually do anything on its own. It only softens up enemy positions, where other units now have to finish the job. So I under-invest in artillery, and prefer to bulk out infantry, panzer, and recon units instead.
PoorOldSpike
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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by PoorOldSpike »

Kerensky wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:09 pm But artillery is dangerous to overvalue. It's overly slot hungry, and doesn't actually do anything on its own. It only softens up enemy positions, where other units now have to finish the job. So I under-invest in artillery, and prefer to bulk out infantry, panzer, and recon units instead.

Me too, in fact I usually buy tac bombers in preference to artillery because they destroy enemy combat strength whereas arty only tends to inflict suppression.

Stuka pilot Hans-Ulrich Rudel vs T-34
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Kerensky
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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by Kerensky »

No wonder he was able to destroy so many vehicles in his career. He's as big as Godzilla! :shock:
Horseman
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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by Horseman »

Kerensky wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:41 pm No wonder he was able to destroy so many vehicles in his career. He's as big as Godzilla! :shock:
:lol:

Imagine the size of the Stuka he flew!
PoorOldSpike
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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by PoorOldSpike »

Incidentally can I ask a stupid question?- Does cover give protection against air attack and artillery attack?
I mean, would a unit in clear terrain suffer more damage than a unit in forests or cities etc?
I've tried analysing the combat stats but I'm no good at maths (sniffle)
Retributarr
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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by Retributarr »

PoorOldSpike

Do 'Forests' and such provide some additional-benefit [Damage-Reduction] to a 'Unit' if attacked?. I have 'Assumed' that it does... even though... I-myself have not yet had definite verification of that status.

It definetly should!!!,... the only time it wouldn't... is if an 'Air-Burst' from an artillery shell exploded above in the 'Tree-Tops'... thereby causing thousands of wood-splinters to rain down like shrapnel on the infantry units hiding in the trees below... "in addition"... large heavy branches falling down as well.
Kerensky
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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by Kerensky »

PoorOldSpike wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:17 pm Incidentally can I ask a stupid question?- Does cover give protection against air attack and artillery attack?
I mean, would a unit in clear terrain suffer more damage than a unit in forests or cities etc?
I've tried analysing the combat stats but I'm no good at maths (sniffle)
They do.

The intrinsic, base entrenchment level provided by terrain provides small defensive bonuses to units in such terrain.

This is most notable in cities, where the base entrenchment level is 4 and max entrenchment level is 10.
PoorOldSpike
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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by PoorOldSpike »

Horseman wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:03 pm Imagine the size of the Stuka he flew!
Kerensky wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:41 pm No wonder he was able to destroy so many vehicles in his career. He's as big as Godzilla! :shock:
Yes or else T-34's were smaller than I thought.
KV-1's look a bit small too-

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PoorOldSpike
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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by PoorOldSpike »

Kerensky wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:05 pm The intrinsic, base entrenchment level provided by terrain provides small defensive bonuses to units in such terrain.
This is most notable in cities, where the base entrenchment level is 4 and max entrenchment level is 10.
Retributarr wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:57 pm ..is if an 'Air-Burst' from an artillery shell exploded above in the 'Tree-Tops'... thereby causing thousands of wood-splinters to rain down like shrapnel on the infantry units hiding in the trees below... "in addition"... large heavy branches falling down as well.

"Hey sarge what shall we do?"
"Stay put and don't lose your helmet"


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Tassadar
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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by Tassadar »

I always try to keep my core full of various types of units for the different tactical option it gives and the fun immersive element. Besides, the equipment upgrade factor and decisions about army compositionor was always the most enjoyable for me in Panzer Corps.

Towed guns are great at the start, but with time I tend to just keep the two largest ones, one gun each (17 cm K and 21 cm Mrs). As it was said, their huge range provides options to target anemy positions otherwsie impossible to reach. That being said, the 15 cm sFH is by far the most cost efficent piece of them all and provides everything needed form artillery - besides mobility. And since I slowly shift towards mobility later in the game, these get replaced by other types of guns.

Self-propelled guns are what I tend to go for later. They offer more freedom of choice in targets, but are expensive and enemy bombers can really drain prestige by targeting them (prestige is not a factor in purchases in this game as much as replacements are). Still I buy one as soon as possible and later upgrade to Hummels. Wespe is also interesting - costs a bit less slots, so I always have one handy for scenarios where I struggle to find that one free point of prestige to fit another artilery piece in. End of the campagin I will have 3 Hummels and a Wespe most of the time.

Assault guns are my favourite, but are for sure not something necessary and will not be liked by everyone. An early StuG will be a valuable too in many scenarios where encirclement is imprtant and when enemy counterattacks are likely, so it's a must for me. A second usually appears when the StuH 42 becomes avaialbe and the former is upgraded to the Brummbar/Sturmtiger for the extreme punch and is always very busy.

As for rocket artillery - I keep one for the rare use as it can really hit hard and is quite mobile, but rarely get two - maybe besides the Berlin scenario on historical path where a towed Nebelwerfer can be handy in a few places on the map with more attacking infantry than tanks.

Finally, I never use Karl-Gerat and Schwerer Gustav. After trying them once I've came to a conclusion they are quite unbalanced and not too enjoyable outside scenarios they are intended to appear in - having them as auxillary only instead of purchasable prototypes would have been probably better, but at least none of the missions actually force the player to use them, which is a good thing.
PoorOldSpike wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:12 am The 7.5 cm lacks range which makes it inconvenient, though many have managed to work around this. I must admit I have never actually used these, though I see how they could be useful fighting in predominantly hilly terrain which alleviates their primary shortcoming. The main draw would be the slot cost of 2 which is very cheap though I remain unconvinced because of the difficult set-up & relatively low punch.
I wonder if the Axis Operation DLC will make me consider having one of these in reserve for scenarios where gebirgsjäger units could be employed more.
Kerensky
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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by Kerensky »

Tassadar wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:38 pm
I wonder if the Axis Operation DLC will make me consider having one of these in reserve for scenarios where gebirgsjäger units could be employed more.
I dunno about gebirgsjäger in particular, but there are at least a few reserve swapping scenarios. In Spain, it's mostly directed at aircraft, because some scenarios have such miserable weather it's strongly advised in briefings to put your air force into temporary reserve.
voxr
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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by voxr »

PoorOldSpike wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:57 pm
voxr wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:30 amRegarding always using the best equipment I don't think that's strictly true anymore..
In multiplayer I bet that philosophy is music to your opponents ears..:)
Unfortunately (or should I say lucky for me!) I have no experience of multiplayer.
Kerensky wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:09 pm Best equipment (highest stats) are conductive to the campaign environment, because it lasts so long progressing from scenario after scenario.
Most efficient (lowest cost with still decent stats) are conductive to multiplayer environment, because it doesn't matter if 99% of your forces die, as long as the remaining 1% controls the objective at the end of the scenario.
This is quite interesting and does sound logical in theory. However I find it impossible to reconcile with my own experience in PC2. I find that certain compromises (within a certain limit, of course) in equipment quality have to be made if I want to field all the units I want to.

As another example, I don't think the III J/1 is worth the slots at time of introduction and continue using the III J for a bit longer.

Come to think of it, I have also never played without Slow Modernisation (and I picked Retrograde in my current run) so this may have coloured my views a bit.

Goes without saying that balance is key in all things. Unlike in PC1 where you fielded the best equipment across your whole army, in PC2 you are actually forced to upgrade selectively and find the sweet spot between capability & cost for the best 'value'.
voxr
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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by voxr »

Tassadar wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:38 pm I always try to keep my core full of various types of units for the different tactical option it gives and the fun immersive element. Besides, the equipment upgrade factor and decisions about army compositionor was always the most enjoyable for me in Panzer Corps.

Towed guns are great at the start, but with time I tend to just keep the two largest ones, one gun each (17 cm K and 21 cm Mrs). As it was said, their huge range provides options to target anemy positions otherwsie impossible to reach. That being said, the 15 cm sFH is by far the most cost efficent piece of them all and provides everything needed form artillery - besides mobility. And since I slowly shift towards mobility later in the game, these get replaced by other types of guns.

Self-propelled guns are what I tend to go for later. They offer more freedom of choice in targets, but are expensive and enemy bombers can really drain prestige by targeting them (prestige is not a factor in purchases in this game as much as replacements are). Still I buy one as soon as possible and later upgrade to Hummels. Wespe is also interesting - costs a bit less slots, so I always have one handy for scenarios where I struggle to find that one free point of prestige to fit another artilery piece in. End of the campagin I will have 3 Hummels and a Wespe most of the time.

Assault guns are my favourite, but are for sure not something necessary and will not be liked by everyone. An early StuG will be a valuable too in many scenarios where encirclement is imprtant and when enemy counterattacks are likely, so it's a must for me. A second usually appears when the StuH 42 becomes avaialbe and the former is upgraded to the Brummbar/Sturmtiger for the extreme punch and is always very busy.

As for rocket artillery - I keep one for the rare use as it can really hit hard and is quite mobile, but rarely get two - maybe besides the Berlin scenario on historical path where a towed Nebelwerfer can be handy in a few places on the map with more attacking infantry than tanks.

Finally, I never use Karl-Gerat and Schwerer Gustav. After trying them once I've came to a conclusion they are quite unbalanced and not too enjoyable outside scenarios they are intended to appear in - having them as auxillary only instead of purchasable prototypes would have been probably better, but at least none of the missions actually force the player to use them, which is a good thing.
PoorOldSpike wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:12 am The 7.5 cm lacks range which makes it inconvenient, though many have managed to work around this. I must admit I have never actually used these, though I see how they could be useful fighting in predominantly hilly terrain which alleviates their primary shortcoming. The main draw would be the slot cost of 2 which is very cheap though I remain unconvinced because of the difficult set-up & relatively low punch.
I wonder if the Axis Operation DLC will make me consider having one of these in reserve for scenarios where gebirgsjäger units could be employed more.
With the ability to dismount from organic transport, I find towed guns can actually keep up somewhat with the rest of your army. It does take some advance planning to achieve good positioning every turn. The gist of it is to make sure you can always fire at the start of every turn without having to spend your move action.

Personally I don't use the SPG's since I find the towed versions can do the job just as well but the assault guns are very useful, though I find the Stug IIIB extremely anemic. I much prefer the Soviet line (SU-122 /152) and usually forego any German ones until the StuH.

Rocket artillery doesn't do it for me as well, despite being one of my favourites in PC1. They are very powerful on the offense but once again the 2 range on the Nebelwerfer limits options too much for my liking. The Wuhrfrahmen is better due to mobility but I have never been able to bring myself to pay its slot cost. Another sticking point for me is the low ammo which precludes any defensive cover (they can essentially only support against one attack with 2 ammo). The low ammo count is probably the biggest sticking point for me.
fluffybunnyuk
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Re: Weekly Unit Discussion Thread

Post by fluffybunnyuk »

I spam 2 tanks with steamroller, then upgrade them to the 15cm for soft/hard support, i usually progress those to gustav/gerat. Camouflage is lovely on the railway gun with overrun award.
Outside of that chain, i must admit i do like a unit you missed off the list... a KV-2 in artillery mode. 15 strength with convert suppression to kills, double attack, zero slots, and overrun award. Perfect for bulldozing west to east right through moscow.
It does soft support, can reduce entrenchment by 4 with 2 attacks, and pretty much butchers 2 or 3 infantry units every turn. Allowing the flammpanzer to come in and overrun the 2 weakened infantry units.

and it can also be a tank.... with survivor level 2 it has a defense of 22...and butchers tanks in tank mode. For 0 slot space its a bargain, and much more overpowered than the karl gerat ( kills twice as many points for me).
In David vs Goliath mode its almost a necessity with a strat bomber, and a consolidator 20 strength flammpanzer against 25 strength infantry units.
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