Alternative Gameplay Mod v1.3

[stockwellpete]

The current anarchy classification for v1.1 of the Alternative Gameplay Mod is as follows . . .

Anarchy-prone units (anarchy value = 25)
Beserkers
Scythed chariots
Heavy weapon infantry**
Impact foot, including Imitation Legionaries (but excluding Romans)**
Light chariots with light spear
Light spear/sword infantry**
Mob
Mounted lancers and mounted light spear/sword cavalry**
Offensive spears (except hoplites and shield wall)**
Warbands**

note:** superior/elite of these troop types have minus 20 anarchy modifier, raw have +20 anarchy modifier added to the basic anarchy value
-----------------------------------

Disciplined units (anarchy value = 5)
Defensive spearmen**
Elephants
Hoplites (phalanx)**
Pikes**
Shield wall**
Romans**

note:** superior/elite of these troop types have minus 20 anarchy modifier, raw have +20 anarchy modifier added to the basic anarchy value
------------------------------------

Exempt units (anarchy value = 0)
Camelry
All chariots with bows
Foot archers
Foot Skirmishers
Light horse with javelin or bow
Mounted archers
Naffatun
Persian Immortals and Sparabara


There is one error so far and that is African spearmen who should be in the disciplined section and not the anarchy-prone section as they are "phalanx".

[rbodleyscott]

At some point there will be camel lancers, so you might want to code those in at at the same level as other non-light lancers.

I note that Light Horse Lancers are likely to refuse to charge non-light cavalry. Apologies for not being up to speed with the current mod but is there anything stopping them from suicidally frontally Anarchy charging them?

[stockwellpete]

At some point there will be camel lancers, so you might want to code those in at at the same level as other non-light lancers.

I note that Light Horse Lancers are likely to refuse to charge non-light cavalry. Apologies for not being up to speed with the current mod but is there anything stopping them from suicidally frontally Anarchy charging them?

Schweetness will have to answer that one on refusing to charge as he mostly did all that stuff.

[Schweetness101]

At some point there will be camel lancers, so you might want to code those in at at the same level as other non-light lancers.

I note that Light Horse Lancers are likely to refuse to charge non-light cavalry. Apologies for not being up to speed with the current mod but is there anything stopping them from suicidally frontally Anarchy charging them?

I forget where but someone asked me about light lancers and my reply was that I wasn't really sure what to do with them for anarchy/refusals because I wasn't sure what their historical/gameplay role was supposed to be. If they are meant to be effective against non light cav, or at least against disrupted or low quality non light cav, or when flanking them, then I can take that into consideration with refusals and make them less likely to do so. If, instead they are meant more to chase away skirmishers and other lights, and to pursue routers and attack fragmented units, and not to attack non light cav, then I could keep them as having a high chance to refuse against non light cav. You tell me?

They've been a bit overlooked with anarchy because right now ranged units do not anarchy charge, and because that prevents most lights from anarchy charging we hadn't thought about the effect on non-ranged lights (light lancers and maybe some other unit too?)

a few things I could do:

1) add an exception where lights will not anarchy charge non-fragmented non-lights
2) put back in the combat margin considerations, decreasing/increasing chance to anarchy charge with decreased/increased chance to win
3) if at combat advantage, then decrease chance to refuse orders, so, among other matchups, light lancers would be much less likely to refuse to charge against say disrupted low quality cav, or cav turned away from them or whatever (it is already the case that if at combat disadvantage then refuse charge chance goes up, but adding in the opposite might be helpful as well)
4) remove light lancers from the special considerations for lights when it comes to refusals (ie currently in the mod lights have chance to refuse to charge non lights, and light cav specifically have an extra high chance to refuse to charge non-light cav)

[stockwellpete]

4) remove light lancers from the special considerations for lights when it comes to refusals (ie currently in the mod lights have chance to refuse to charge non lights, and light cav specifically have an extra high chance to refuse to charge non-light cav)

I have just been looking at the behaviour and stats for prodromoi on my Training Ground. Against most types of cavalry they have good stats for impact combat ranging from 60-1 against average protected bow/sword and 50-2 against average protected light spear cavalry to 21-6 and 13-13 against above average protected lancers and superior armoured lancers respectively. They usually stay in contact after the impact melee, but then get beaten in the subsequent melee combat and will fall back if dropping cohesion or losing heavily (red numbers).

So it seems to me that these prodromoi could be used as flankers in conjunction with other cavalry units and therefore perhaps they should lose their anarchy exemption and be treated as cavalry for refusal to charge rules.

[Schweetness101]

oh also it looks like right now light lancers are exempt from anarchy as per their squads file value. Should that remain the case? should they be able to anarchy charge light units perhaps?

for both superior prodromoi and above average bedouin light horse, I noticed that after removing them from the special rules for light units refusing to charge non lights, their odds of refusing to charge are typically 0% against non-light cav, even superior non-light cav, and 25% against spears from the front like other mounted (light or not). Does that sound about right? Because of their quality and lancer poa they are unlikely to be at severe disadvantage charging anyone, and if not disrupted, and if they are excepted from the refusal to charge rules for lights, basically refusals for them are just going to be against steady pikes/spears from the front and infantry in protective terrain.

Perhaps light lancers in this respect could be a kind of special light cav unit that is able to confidently charge non light cav without the risk or refusal, giving them a bit more of a distinct role from the ranged light cav. Dunno if that is called for or appropriate, or what rebalancing it would require, but it could kind of add some unit variety?

[Schweetness101]

So it seems to me that these prodromoi could be used as flankers in conjunction with other cavalry units and therefore perhaps they should lose their anarchy exemption and be treated as cavalry for refusal to charge rules.

ok, what anarchy value should they get? and should they only be able to anarchy other lights?

[Schweetness101]

another general question about how refusals should be done. Currently, there are a number of positive modifiers, typically with a fixed +25% chance to refuse, and the unit in question just uses the largest one. Then there are a few negative modifiers that can decrease that value, BUT the positive modifiers do not accumulate.

So, for example, there is a 25% chance to refuse for mounted against steady spears from the front, and a 25% chance to refuse to charge at significant disadvantage, and a 25% chance to refuse if disrupted and the enemy is steady. So, for example, if a disrupted, low quality cav unit decides to charge average steady spears from the front, it will still just have a 25% chance to refuse.

Should, instead, these values be accumulating? like each extra condition adds say 10% to the chance to refuse? There are a few ways to do the math.

[stockwellpete]

ok, what anarchy value should they get? and should they only be able to anarchy other lights?

Base value is 25 for anarchy-prone, but as prodromoi are superior their value should be 5, Bedouin lancers are average so there value should be 25. I think they probably should be able to charge all troop types, particularly other cavalry. I am not sure of the numbers versus infantry. But that can be covered by refusal to charge rules, I guess.

[stockwellpete]

another general question about how refusals should be done. Currently, there are a number of positive modifiers, typically with a fixed +25% chance to refuse, and the unit in question just uses the largest one. Then there are a few negative modifiers that can decrease that value, BUT the positive modifiers do not accumulate.

So, for example, there is a 25% chance to refuse for mounted against steady spears from the front, and a 25% chance to refuse to charge at significant disadvantage, and a 25% chance to refuse if disrupted and the enemy is steady. So, for example, if a disrupted, low quality cav unit decides to charge average steady spears from the front, it will still just have a 25% chance to refuse.

Should, instead, these values be accumulating? like each extra condition adds say 10% to the chance to refuse? There are a few ways to do the math.

Yes, I think they should be cumulative really.

[Schweetness101]

ok, what anarchy value should they get? and should they only be able to anarchy other lights?

Base value is 25 for anarchy-prone, but as prodromoi are superior their value should be 5, Bedouin lancers are average so there value should be 25. I think they probably should be able to charge all troop types, particularly other cavalry. I am not sure of the numbers versus infantry. But that can be covered by refusal to charge rules, I guess.

ok, are those the only 2 light lancer units?

and for be able to charge, do you mean able to anarchy charge?

I think RBS's point is something like there shouldn't be a unit matchup where you get both a decent chance to anarchy charge and a decent chance to refuse to charge? Because that would seem kind of confusing or contradictory, not sure.

[stockwellpete]

and for be able to charge, do you mean able to anarchy charge?

Yes.

I think RBS's point is something like there shouldn't be a unit matchup where you get both a decent chance to anarchy charge and a decent chance to refuse to charge? Because that would seem kind of confusing or contradictory, not sure.

Light lancers should be able to anarchy charge all other mounted troop types. Against infantry should have higher chance to refuse against steady units, especially pikes and spears.

[Schweetness101]

another general question about how refusals should be done. Currently, there are a number of positive modifiers, typically with a fixed +25% chance to refuse, and the unit in question just uses the largest one. Then there are a few negative modifiers that can decrease that value, BUT the positive modifiers do not accumulate.

So, for example, there is a 25% chance to refuse for mounted against steady spears from the front, and a 25% chance to refuse to charge at significant disadvantage, and a 25% chance to refuse if disrupted and the enemy is steady. So, for example, if a disrupted, low quality cav unit decides to charge average steady spears from the front, it will still just have a 25% chance to refuse.

Should, instead, these values be accumulating? like each extra condition adds say 10% to the chance to refuse? There are a few ways to do the math.

Yes, I think they should be cumulative really.

ok, and what values?

positive chance to refuse modifiers:
-severe combat disadvantage
-mounted vs steady spears/pikes from the front:
-mounted vs steady foot in protective/built up terrain:
-disrupted vs any:
-lights (only ranged lights?) vs non lights:
-(ranged?) light cav vs non light cav:
-light foot against non disordered light cav:
-light lancers? anything special?:

negative chance to refuse modifiers:
-light foot against severely disordered non lights
-any with flank or rear attack

eliminate chance to refuse if:
-auto drop rear attacks
-target is fragmented

other modifiers that should be added?

cumulative values kind of make more sense but it's also harder to imagine each combination of values and what the scores should be

[stockwellpete]

ok, are those the only 2 light lancer units?

The only 2 I know of. Not sure if there are others.

[Schweetness101]

and for be able to charge, do you mean able to anarchy charge?

Yes.

I think RBS's point is something like there shouldn't be a unit matchup where you get both a decent chance to anarchy charge and a decent chance to refuse to charge? Because that would seem kind of confusing or contradictory, not sure.

Light lancers should be able to anarchy charge all other mounted troop types. Against infantry should have higher chance to refuse against steady units, especially pikes and spears.

ok so light lancers:
-non-zero anarchy charge chance for lights and other mounted but not non-fragmented non-light infantry? or can just anarchy like other mounted?
-even higher refusal chance against steady pikes from the front than other mounted? or same?

[stockwellpete]

ok, and what values?

positive chance to refuse modifiers:
-severe combat disadvantage
-mounted vs steady spears/pikes from the front:
-mounted vs steady foot in protective/built up terrain:
-disrupted vs any:
-lights (only ranged lights?) vs non lights:
-(ranged?) light cav vs non light cav:
-light foot against non disordered light cav:
-light lancers? anything special?:

negative chance to refuse modifiers:
-light foot against severely disordered non lights
-any with flank or rear attack

eliminate chance to refuse if:
-auto drop rear attacks
-target is fragmented

other modifiers that should be added?

cumulative values kind of make more sense but it's also harder to imagine each combination of values and what the scores should be

It needs to be simple. Maybe put the ceiling at 50% so that just 2 modifiers are enough to reach it. Severe combat disadvantage would be one, disrupted would be two. Plus the negative chance and eliminate chance modifiers.

[stockwellpete]

ok so light lancers:
-non-zero anarchy charge chance for lights and other mounted but not non-fragmented non-light infantry? or can just anarchy like other mounted?
-even higher refusal chance against steady pikes from the front than other mounted? or same?

Again keep it simple. Treat as other cavalry in all respects. And against pikes as well (they will just bounce off with a bloody nose).

[Schweetness101]

ok cool, and I kind of like a value of 20 for each positive and negative modifier if accumulative? that way it is simple, and it's similar to the values for 1->2->3v1 melees where it's 20,40,50, ie not as much extra is squeezed out of the third factor, but it is still accounted for

[Schweetness101]

and what about adding:

if at significant combat advantage, then decrease chance to refuse orders

in addition to the opposite, which is already in there?

[Gaznak]

Very excited to try the mod!

Without having played it yet, reading the current discussions I guess I would just generally caution against over complicating the rules. Obviously you want a more nuanced system than FOG1's and that's fine but just I guess as a reminder that in FOG1 it was just a 2d6 roll with a +1 for drilled troops/command radius and quality re-rolls and it worked well enough. Having anarchy charges into a disadvantage was part of the fun, at least for me.