Quality of life: Decadence in region

Field of Glory: Empires is a grand strategy game in which you will have to move in an intricate and living tapestry of nations and tribes, each one with their distinctive culture.
Set in Europe and in the Mediterranean Area during the Classical Age, experience what truly means to manage an Empire.

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Kaede11
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Quality of life: Decadence in region

Post by Kaede11 »

As it is right now, the tooltip for Decadence in each region is not offering enough information for the player:

Image

The tooltip show accumulated decadence and it also shows how much decadence is gained per turn based on Nation and Structues. But then we get a simple text line telling us that 10% of accumulated decadence is removed each turn. This is somewhat lazy and a simple modification could make it easier for the players to understand how everything works, instead of forcing the player to calculate %.

I would suggest something like this:

Image

Obviously, this was made using paint in 5 minutes, but you get the idea.

This game is amazing, but some quality of life improvements would be welcome both for understanding everything that happens and making the game less daunting for new players.
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Re: Quality of life: Decadence in region

Post by MarkShot »

Kaede11 wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 4:03 pm Obviously, this was made using paint in 5 minutes, but you get the idea.

This game is amazing, but some quality of life improvements would be welcome both for understanding everything that happens and making the game less daunting for new players.
You do realize you are more likely to get your suggestions in the game if you hand Pocus completed code which has been tested already? :)
Kaede11
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Re: Quality of life: Decadence in region

Post by Kaede11 »

Nope, I didn't realise that... basically because I don't know how to code, I'm just a player giving my opinion on how the game could be improved to make finding the numbers easier.

I don't even know if this is possible or if the engine allows for it... I assume it does.

That said, why this answer? Are suggestions unwelcome here? honest question, really. I might have overlooked a rule and I aplogize if that happens to be the case.
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Re: Quality of life: Decadence in region

Post by MarkShot »

Kaede11 wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 7:43 am That said, why this answer? Are suggestions unwelcome here? honest question, really. I might have overlooked a rule and I aplogize if that happens to be the case.
It was said in jest not criticism. There is nothing wrong with you or your suggestion. I apologize if that is how you took my post.

Pocus is the main person involved on the game. So, every decision he makes involves an extremely difficult juggling act of resource allocation (himself).

I bought the DLC minutes after release. I and Pocus go back to AGEOD and 2006. I never buy anything upon release, but I know that one AGEOD game with the original engine written by Pocus got like 16 patches. I have never seen him do something shoddy or unfinished. So, I could confidently spend money even if there are bugs in this release.

I have EU4 (all of it). You know it costs something like $500 USD without sale prices or $5 USD month to lease. There is a much bigger team and a continuous revenue stream funding development. Also, not all the hard QOL feature PDS consumed as much resources at they would like you to believe (I have more than 30 years as a software engineer). One of my favorite examples for EU4 DLC was 2 time consuming QOL features (or so presented). Which I highly doubt given my experience. But is actually proven by the fact that both implementations contain identical "English" errors and text which means that one was certainly a quick clone of the other ... not the labor intensive hand coding implied in a developer diary.

So, it is in this context I made my quip. No insult intended. You have my apology if I offended you.
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Re: Quality of life: Decadence in region

Post by Kaede11 »

No offense taken. I would love to contribute coding if I could, but sadly I can't. I translated some of the dlc content to spanish though... I hope my contribution was useful.
I'm aware EU4 has a bigger team, I have no doubt about that, but when comparing this to EU4... or maybe imperator rome. FOGE gets the upper hand in all areas but QOL - and maybe diplomacy. There is love behind this game and I appreciatte it.
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Re: Quality of life: Decadence in region

Post by Pocus »

The main reason is not laziness, but time allocation. Also on a personal level I don't see much of a point of showing that 12.6 divided by 10 is 1.26 ... Just move the decimal separator a few pixels to the left in your mind and you get the result 8)

Anything, even trivial requires time, and translation/changes in 4 languages. What you think is trivial ... is indeed trivial, but I'm sure that in the end that's 20 mn on my side, all accounted for. Seems not much? No it is not, but when your TODO list is 20 pages long ... Everything is a matter of priority.
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ess1
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Re: Quality of life: Decadence in region

Post by ess1 »

Your efforts are truly appreciated.
Keep well, first priority :D
In care home looking for Diplomacy opponents :)
Kaede11
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Re: Quality of life: Decadence in region

Post by Kaede11 »

Pocus wrote: Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:50 pm The main reason is not laziness, but time allocation. Also on a personal level I don't see much of a point of showing that 12.6 divided by 10 is 1.26 ... Just move the decimal separator a few pixels to the left in your mind and you get the result 8)

Anything, even trivial requires time, and translation/changes in 4 languages. What you think is trivial ... is indeed trivial, but I'm sure that in the end that's 20 mn on my side, all accounted for. Seems not much? No it is not, but when your TODO list is 20 pages long ... Everything is a matter of priority.
I know it's not laziness and I apologize because I should have not used that word. After reading it again it seems a bit aggressive, I'm sorry.

About the point f showing that 12.6 divided by 10 is 1.26, well, you are somewhat right. But some people might find it interesting and useful event though it's a simple operation. By listing it and adding your "next decadence" it would be easy to see the decadence changes at a glance.

Just wanted to share my thoughts on the matter and see if it was any help for you. Even though QOL improvements or usability in general are not top priorities, maybe you can add them as -100 priorities for the final touch of the game!

Sorry again for the misundersanding.
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Re: Quality of life: Decadence in region

Post by travling_canuck »

To me, the main value of the original suggestion was less the natural Decadence decline - although I agree that putting it in as a green number visually provides the information very quickly and in a way that is more intuitive than reading the text and dividing the total by 10, I also agree it's not critical to add.

The main value was the second number Kaede11 suggested adding, although I'd tweak it so that instead of it showing the expected Decadence next turn, it showed the Expected Change next turn: a quick snapshot of whether Decadence is going up or going down in the region. Green if going down, Red if going up.

To figure this out right now, the player needs to add the Nation size factor to the Structures factor, then divide the current Accumulated figure by 10 and subtract that number. Can I do that? Sure. Would it be more useful for the player to be able to simple look at a line and know whether Decadence is going up or down in that region? Yes, I think so.

Is this the highest value use of Pocus' time? No idea! But consider this a suggestion for some version of the game. :wink:
Kaede11
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Re: Quality of life: Decadence in region

Post by Kaede11 »

travling_canuck wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:15 pm To me, the main value of the original suggestion was less the natural Decadence decline - although I agree that putting it in as a green number visually provides the information very quickly and in a way that is more intuitive than reading the text and dividing the total by 10, I also agree it's not critical to add.

The main value was the second number Kaede11 suggested adding, although I'd tweak it so that instead of it showing the expected Decadence next turn, it showed the Expected Change next turn: a quick snapshot of whether Decadence is going up or going down in the region. Green if going down, Red if going up.

To figure this out right now, the player needs to add the Nation size factor to the Structures factor, then divide the current Accumulated figure by 10 and subtract that number. Can I do that? Sure. Would it be more useful for the player to be able to simple look at a line and know whether Decadence is going up or down in that region? Yes, I think so.

Is this the highest value use of Pocus' time? No idea! But consider this a suggestion for some version of the game. :wink:
Agreed. It's probably not the first priority right now, but we are having some questions regarding how the game works that could be easily solved by a better use of tooltips. This game is probably better or at the same level as paradox games, but their games are more user-friendly because of tooltips showing absolutely everything.

If there is any way to help in this kind of minor changes I'd be willing to. That would allow Pocus to advance on first priority areas and leave the minor but useful issues to others.
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Re: Quality of life: Decadence in region

Post by Pocus »

There is a fraction of players, and a fraction of the team, who dislike lengthy tooltips. For them, if a tooltip is too long, it gets in the way, is not read, and probably, you should have put this text elsewhere, like in an online help. I'm 50/50 on that. I see both pro and cons to each philosophy.
One could say, why not having 2 levels of tooltips, for each category. It boils down to having enough time for even more QOL improvements. These are never done ... You could have one person full time on it and still, there will be remarks and requests for improvements.

If you want to help, then you should probably start modding the game with easy things first, it will show if you have sustained interest or not. 95% of people, including me, we play a game, then move along after some time.
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Re: Quality of life: Decadence in region

Post by Surt »

Some games you can click on the tool tip or hover over it to get an extended version of it.
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Re: Quality of life: Decadence in region

Post by MarkShot »

The bright side of this is as the customer base grows the less tutorial information will be needed.

I mean look at PDS. They don't even bother with manuals. All useful material other than tool tips are produced by their customers.

---

But to be honest ... if this game and FOG2 had not come with excellent manuals, I would have thought less of both you and Richard. Because I think the expectation of making customers do your job for you is somewhat arrogant. Clearly, for Empires and FOG2, there are wonderful videos that give insight into game strategies. I don't think the documentation needs to be that extensive, but it alone should be sufficient that someone can play decently on balanced difficulty level and have a good time. I would say the the both game manuals were a few times beyond that. I was pleased with both games.

Also, as a software engineer, I always required the writing of high level docs before the coding. If it is impossible to coherently explain in plain language how something is to work, then there is a good chance it is flawed and cannot be coded. So, much less expensive to find this out by writing 10-30 pages than months of coding. So, in a way, a players manual is the first validity check of concepts.

Oh, as long as I am rambling (I think I can do that as a senior now) ... one of thing Empires does very well is the graphical combat presentation. The old AGEOD games contained that much information and more, but Empires ... if you just watch a days worth of battles ... you get a good sense of what is going on and how you can improve your outcomes. Although the old titles were very detailed, battles did not leap off the screen and fill your mind with many insights.

So, you are a team of one. But just think of how much time you get to save on senseless meetings! :)
Kaede11
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Re: Quality of life: Decadence in region

Post by Kaede11 »

MarkShot wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:22 am The bright side of this is as the customer base grows the less tutorial information will be needed.

I mean look at PDS. They don't even bother with manuals. All useful material other than tool tips are produced by their customers.

---

But to be honest ... if this game and FOG2 had not come with excellent manuals, I would have thought less of both you and Richard. Because I think the expectation of making customers do your job for you is somewhat arrogant. Clearly, for Empires and FOG2, there are wonderful videos that give insight into game strategies. I don't think the documentation needs to be that extensive, but it alone should be sufficient that someone can play decently on balanced difficulty level and have a good time. I would say the the both game manuals were a few times beyond that. I was pleased with both games.

Also, as a software engineer, I always required the writing of high level docs before the coding. If it is impossible to coherently explain in plain language how something is to work, then there is a good chance it is flawed and cannot be coded. So, much less expensive to find this out by writing 10-30 pages than months of coding. So, in a way, a players manual is the first validity check of concepts.

Oh, as long as I am rambling (I think I can do that as a senior now) ... one of thing Empires does very well is the graphical combat presentation. The old AGEOD games contained that much information and more, but Empires ... if you just watch a days worth of battles ... you get a good sense of what is going on and how you can improve your outcomes. Although the old titles were very detailed, battles did not leap off the screen and fill your mind with many insights.

So, you are a team of one. But just think of how much time you get to save on senseless meetings! :)
Tbh I only read the manual after playing the game for a while. My first playthroughs were hard, but I started to grasp it and enjoyed the game. It's not that hard to understand the general concept of everything, but it gets harder when you want to totally understand each area. I'm enjoying the game a lot and I'm playing it with FOG:E simulator event though I bought it in the first place to have a campaign mode for FOG2.
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Re: Quality of life: Decadence in region

Post by MarkShot »

I usually detest TBS wargames at the tactical level.

But FOG2 is a fantastic product. It is very intuitive, and if your TBS complaint is that they are tedious ... FOG2 has options which speed the pace and an exceptional UI.

Similar to you, it wasn't really my primary purpose ... Empires was ... but I got the bundle and was pleasantly surprised what treat FOG2 is.
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Re: Quality of life: Decadence in region

Post by Kaede11 »

MarkShot wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:58 am I usually detest TBS wargames at the tactical level.

But FOG2 is a fantastic product. It is very intuitive, and if your TBS complaint is that they are tedious ... FOG2 has options which speed the pace and an exceptional UI.

Similar to you, it wasn't really my primary purpose ... Empires was ... but I got the bundle and was pleasantly surprised what treat FOG2 is.
It was the other way around fo me MarkShot. I really love the work there is in FOG2 and FOG:E. I remember the day empires was announced... omg... I had to buy it. Honestly, I don't have any problems with how the game presents information. Everything is there and you can find it if you know where to look. The only reason I started this thread is because people, nowadays, are not used to spend much time learning the games and they might find a wall when starting this game without any preparation.
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Re: Quality of life: Decadence in region

Post by Kaede11 »

Pocus wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:28 am There is a fraction of players, and a fraction of the team, who dislike lengthy tooltips. For them, if a tooltip is too long, it gets in the way, is not read, and probably, you should have put this text elsewhere, like in an online help. I'm 50/50 on that. I see both pro and cons to each philosophy.
One could say, why not having 2 levels of tooltips, for each category. It boils down to having enough time for even more QOL improvements. These are never done ... You could have one person full time on it and still, there will be remarks and requests for improvements.

If you want to help, then you should probably start modding the game with easy things first, it will show if you have sustained interest or not. 95% of people, including me, we play a game, then move along after some time.
I'm probably going to move along after some time, come back when another expansion is out. I usually come back to this kind of games. The whole idea was more about helping with tiny bits. But hey I might try to create my own scenario at least and see what happens.
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