Tips on use of skirmishers?

[DanZanzibar]

I have scoured the internet (or just done a couple of google and forums searches) for advise on how to use skirmishers better. Either it's (normally) incredibly obvious to a player who has some modicum of experience and I'm the exception or everyone is hoarding their secrets! Either way I would like love some help.

This is one area I tend to feel that I'm a little suicidal. I almost never "win" the skirmisher battle (MP matches only) and usually sacrifice my light foot when I want to delay the enemy. I don't think this is always a bad thing as it may show that I am not overvaluing the cheaper, less "% routed" important troops, especially if it actually helps me to close the battle lines with my preferred match ups. That being said, I'm sure that I don't protect these light foot well enough as I tend to lose the skirmisher fight often even when it's relatively even. On top of it all, I have this compulsion to put lots of them in my armies! It's mostly a terror of getting shot to death... Perhaps I should just tone it down a bit and use fewer?

I hope this isn't too vague to get some experienced players to weigh in on, but I would love to hear some thoughts on using skirmishers.

[Ludendorf]

There's nothing wrong with losing your skirmishers if it allows you to achieve your goal. That said, a few pointers.

-Try to start the battle with your skirmishers concentrated, ideally where you will be advancing quickly towards contested terrain and thus initiative will be important. It can be tempting (and yes, sometimes necessary) to split them up into teams for specific tasks, but if your skirmishers are concentrated, move quickly to knock out any locally opposing skirmishers, and then can threaten the enemy's main line, you'll draw off any other local teams of skirmishers to respond to the threat from your main skirmish force, or at least knacker their main line worse than they can knacker yours.

-Try to get a few skirmishers around the enemy flanks early on in the battle. If you try to approach the front of the enemy's battle line, you'll only get one or at most two (for archers) shots off before the infantry/cavalry charge forces them back behind your main battle line. Skirmishers harassing from the flanks, on the other hand, can mercilessly pepper the enemy as they advance. Surrounding stranded heavies/mediums with them can also work. So concentrating your skirmishers to one flank may be a useful idea.

-In the skirmisher duel, which is your main concern, be proportional with your fire. Place your javelinmen, slingers, and archers in a way that allows them to work together to focus fire most effectively... but don't over-concentrate your fire. Unless you're going for an autobreak, fire enough to cause a disruption, then choose another target. You're looking to maximise the number of cohesion checks you cause, not maximise the damage to a single unit of skirmishers. I tend to use one of these two formations.

:Archer:Slinger/Archer:Javelin:Slinger/Archer:Archer

:Slinger/Archer:Javelin:Slinger/Archer:Slinger/Archer:Javelin:Slinger/Archer.

The first is great for bringing all five units to bear at once against a single target (great for hitting those warbands). The second is more of an anti-skirmisher formation, as three skirmishers to one will be more than enough to get a cohesion check even after moving.

-KEEP YOUR SKIRMISHERS CLOSE TO YOUR LINE, KEEP THE MAIN LINE TOGETHER WITHOUT GAPS WHEN FACING CAVALRY. If you ignore the first warning, your skirmishers may be caught and slaughtered, or they may be caught in melee by enemy skirmishers and then run over by the enemy main line as it advances. Equally, your main line can save individual units of skirmishers or even the whole line if the skirmishers are being overwhelmed in melee. Ignore the second warning and cavalry may pursue your skirmishers right through your main line, through all your fancy ZOCs, and into the back where they can cause chaos, especially if the skirmishers get caught, broken, and then pursued even further. This will prove disastrous for your entire battle plan.

-Keep units of javelin cav near skirmisher infantry battles. One unit of javelin cav or nomad light horse can turn the tide of a skirmisher battle by charging in from the side at the right moment.

If you want, we can have a battle and a practice at the skirmisher side of things. We'll have to dig out a good skirmish list.

[DanZanzibar]

There's nothing wrong with losing your skirmishers if it allows you to achieve your goal. That said, a few pointers.

-Try to start the battle with your skirmishers concentrated, ideally where you will be advancing quickly towards contested terrain and thus initiative will be important. It can be tempting (and yes, sometimes necessary) to split them up into teams for specific tasks, but if your skirmishers are concentrated, move quickly to knock out any locally opposing skirmishers, and then can threaten the enemy's main line, you'll draw off any other local teams of skirmishers to respond to the threat from your main skirmish force, or at least knacker their main line worse than they can knacker yours.

-Try to get a few skirmishers around the enemy flanks early on in the battle. If you try to approach the front of the enemy's battle line, you'll only get one or at most two (for archers) shots off before the infantry/cavalry charge forces them back behind your main battle line. Skirmishers harassing from the flanks, on the other hand, can mercilessly pepper the enemy as they advance. Surrounding stranded heavies/mediums with them can also work. So concentrating your skirmishers to one flank may be a useful idea.

-In the skirmisher duel, which is your main concern, be proportional with your fire. Place your javelinmen, slingers, and archers in a way that allows them to work together to focus fire most effectively... but don't over-concentrate your fire. Unless you're going for an autobreak, fire enough to cause a disruption, then choose another target. You're looking to maximise the number of cohesion checks you cause, not maximise the damage to a single unit of skirmishers. I tend to use one of these two formations.

:Archer:Slinger/Archer:Javelin:Slinger/Archer:Archer

:Slinger/Archer:Javelin:Slinger/Archer:Slinger/Archer:Javelin:Slinger/Archer.

The first is great for bringing all five units to bear at once against a single target (great for hitting those warbands). The second is more of an anti-skirmisher formation, as three skirmishers to one will be more than enough to get a cohesion check even after moving.

-KEEP YOUR SKIRMISHERS CLOSE TO YOUR LINE, KEEP THE MAIN LINE TOGETHER WITHOUT GAPS WHEN FACING CAVALRY. If you ignore the first warning, your skirmishers may be caught and slaughtered, or they may be caught in melee by enemy skirmishers and then run over by the enemy main line as it advances. Equally, your main line can save individual units of skirmishers or even the whole line if the skirmishers are being overwhelmed in melee. Ignore the second warning and cavalry may pursue your skirmishers right through your main line, through all your fancy ZOCs, and into the back where they can cause chaos, especially if the skirmishers get caught, broken, and then pursued even further. This will prove disastrous for your entire battle plan.

-Keep units of javelin cav near skirmisher infantry battles. One unit of javelin cav or nomad light horse can turn the tide of a skirmisher battle by charging in from the side at the right moment.

If you want, we can have a battle and a practice at the skirmisher side of things. We'll have to dig out a good skirmish list.

Thank you Ludendorf - this is just the sort of answer I was hoping for. I'll send you a PM about a setting up a match.

[kronenblatt]

There's nothing wrong with losing your skirmishers if it allows you to achieve your goal. That said, a few pointers.

-Try to start the battle with your skirmishers concentrated, ideally where you will be advancing quickly towards contested terrain and thus initiative will be important. It can be tempting (and yes, sometimes necessary) to split them up into teams for specific tasks, but if your skirmishers are concentrated, move quickly to knock out any locally opposing skirmishers, and then can threaten the enemy's main line, you'll draw off any other local teams of skirmishers to respond to the threat from your main skirmish force, or at least knacker their main line worse than they can knacker yours.

-Try to get a few skirmishers around the enemy flanks early on in the battle. If you try to approach the front of the enemy's battle line, you'll only get one or at most two (for archers) shots off before the infantry/cavalry charge forces them back behind your main battle line. Skirmishers harassing from the flanks, on the other hand, can mercilessly pepper the enemy as they advance. Surrounding stranded heavies/mediums with them can also work. So concentrating your skirmishers to one flank may be a useful idea.

-In the skirmisher duel, which is your main concern, be proportional with your fire. Place your javelinmen, slingers, and archers in a way that allows them to work together to focus fire most effectively... but don't over-concentrate your fire. Unless you're going for an autobreak, fire enough to cause a disruption, then choose another target. You're looking to maximise the number of cohesion checks you cause, not maximise the damage to a single unit of skirmishers. I tend to use one of these two formations.

:Archer:Slinger/Archer:Javelin:Slinger/Archer:Archer

:Slinger/Archer:Javelin:Slinger/Archer:Slinger/Archer:Javelin:Slinger/Archer.

The first is great for bringing all five units to bear at once against a single target (great for hitting those warbands). The second is more of an anti-skirmisher formation, as three skirmishers to one will be more than enough to get a cohesion check even after moving.

-KEEP YOUR SKIRMISHERS CLOSE TO YOUR LINE, KEEP THE MAIN LINE TOGETHER WITHOUT GAPS WHEN FACING CAVALRY. If you ignore the first warning, your skirmishers may be caught and slaughtered, or they may be caught in melee by enemy skirmishers and then run over by the enemy main line as it advances. Equally, your main line can save individual units of skirmishers or even the whole line if the skirmishers are being overwhelmed in melee. Ignore the second warning and cavalry may pursue your skirmishers right through your main line, through all your fancy ZOCs, and into the back where they can cause chaos, especially if the skirmishers get caught, broken, and then pursued even further. This will prove disastrous for your entire battle plan.

-Keep units of javelin cav near skirmisher infantry battles. One unit of javelin cav or nomad light horse can turn the tide of a skirmisher battle by charging in from the side at the right moment.

If you want, we can have a battle and a practice at the skirmisher side of things. We'll have to dig out a good skirmish list.

Many thanks! This was extremely useful to me as well: I'm struggling to make my skirmishers efficient and survive, plus not hinder the advance of the heavy infantry battle line... Need more practice, I guess.

New Massed Archer video available at https://youtu.be/ybgnpPhiX4M

Maybe an idea for a video, about skirmishers, mixes of skirmishing units, and skirmishing tactics and attacks, in addition to the video above, vakarr?

[vakarr]

Well I guess Ludendorff has pretty well covered the topic, but here's my bit: https://youtu.be/678sbVXoBXc. I'm going to fix up my campaigns (most of which were done before various DLC became available), before doing any more videos of that sort.

[stockwellpete]

-In the skirmisher duel, which is your main concern, be proportional with your fire. Place your javelinmen, slingers, and archers in a way that allows them to work together to focus fire most effectively... but don't over-concentrate your fire. Unless you're going for an autobreak, fire enough to cause a disruption, then choose another target. You're looking to maximise the number of cohesion checks you cause, not maximise the damage to a single unit of skirmishers. I tend to use one of these two formations.

Look out for opportunities to charge fragmented enemy skirmishers with your own skirmishers, particularly if the fragmented enemy unit is adjacent to other enemy units because you can sometimes get further cohesion drops in those adjacent units. This can swing a skirmisher battle decisively your way.

Light horse javelin units can be extremely powerful in the second half of the battle when formations break up and fragmented enemy units litter the battlefield. So take care of these light horse units and do not fritter them away.

[kronenblatt]

-In the skirmisher duel, which is your main concern, be proportional with your fire. Place your javelinmen, slingers, and archers in a way that allows them to work together to focus fire most effectively... but don't over-concentrate your fire. Unless you're going for an autobreak, fire enough to cause a disruption, then choose another target. You're looking to maximise the number of cohesion checks you cause, not maximise the damage to a single unit of skirmishers. I tend to use one of these two formations.

Look out for opportunities to charge fragmented enemy skirmishers with your own skirmishers, particularly if the fragmented enemy unit is adjacent to other enemy units because you can sometimes get further cohesion drops in those adjacent units. This can swing a skirmisher battle decisively your way.

Light horse javelin units can be extremely powerful in the second half of the battle when formations break up and fragmented enemy units litter the battlefield. So take care of these light horse units and do not fritter them away.

Maybe I'm engaging too early with my short-range skirmishers (=javelins) so that they are neutralised before battle has actually begun? And same goes for mounted javelin units, who should then be kept back for a while during battle and be applied later on?

Because my skirmishers don't last many turns into the battle, often getting locked into close combat and squeezed between the battle lines and in the end eliminated.

[Swuul]

Don't send your javelin infantry too far ahead alone. If you do that, you will allow them to be charged from flank or at least diagonally, and then they run the wrong way (if seen from your perspective; seen from the opponents perspective they are running exactly the correct way) when Evading, allowing them to be caught up by another charger. When getting closer to hostile line, make sure your main battle-line is at most two squares behind (preferably only one square), so that your javelinmen run towards and through your lines when evading. Also, remember to pull back your javelinmen who are Fragmented (preferably already when they are Disrupted), and move them towards your C-in-C if out of command range (so that they can come back earlier after rallying). Javelin foot can be devastating later on too (slipping through lines to unleash volleys of javelins to the flanks or from the rear, and especially charging Fragmented enemies who have fallen back to rough terrain), so do not burn away them too early. In my opinion javelin foot are in fact more valuable when they are a threat, so dance around with them to make the opponent rip their hair off.

With cavalry javelinmen it is even more easy to run way too far ahead. They are after all *very* fast. They are also rather easy to get Evaded off the battlefield if they are too far ahead on either flank (of course they can come back in later rounds, but Murphy's law dictate that your units who Evaded out never come back while the opponents off-field Evaders are back on field two rounds later). Light cavalry is so very useful later on in the match (charging and Breaking all those hostile Fragmented troops), so you have to take care of them.

[Ludendorf]

Your javelin horse are also excellent when your medium cavalry are outnumbered. Position them on the flanks of enemy mediums, and if you can get a disruption, your light cavalry can then charge in and hold the enemy cavalry in place or force them to evade. They'll be beaten back, but it can be the difference between winning the cavalry engagement and watching your outnumbered lancer line get massacred by cheaper flanking cavalry.