Commanded shot in FoG2 ? :-)

[Athos1660]

Julius Caesar, De Bello Gallico, VII, 80 :

"The Gauls had scattered archers and light-armed infantry here and there, among their cavalry, to give relief to their retreating troops, and sustain the impetuosity of our cavalry. Several of our soldiers were unexpectedly wounded by these, and left the battle."

[melm]

What does commanded shot mean?

[Gaznak]

Troop type from Pike and Shot game. Detached group of light musketeers that got protection from enemy horse charges when adjacent to friendly horse.

[Schweetness101]

Troop type from Pike and Shot game. Detached group of light musketeers that got protection from enemy horse charges when adjacent to friendly horse.

that's neat. Like they are two different units and if the muskets are next to the horses then enemy horse cannot charge them?

I think I remember reading about some germanic unit of horsemen where each rider had an extra skirmisher that like held/ran along side the horse to accompany them while riding and then jumped off in the melee to add infantry power to their cav units once in combat. Anyone remember that from somewhere?

[desicat]

Troop type from Pike and Shot game. Detached group of light musketeers that got protection from enemy horse charges when adjacent to friendly horse.

that's neat. Like they are two different units and if the muskets are next to the horses then enemy horse cannot charge them?

I think I remember reading about some germanic unit of horsemen where each rider had an extra skirmisher that like held/ran along side the horse to accompany them while riding and then jumped off in the melee to add infantry power to their cav units once in combat. Anyone remember that from somewhere?

That is correct. The Germanic Cavalry commanded by Labanieus in support of Caesar in Gaul had cavalry units that transported light/medium infantry supposedly via a saddle grip on the side. They provided a solid punch in support of the cavalry or could be transported quickly to take a strategic position.

[Schweetness101]

Troop type from Pike and Shot game. Detached group of light musketeers that got protection from enemy horse charges when adjacent to friendly horse.

that's neat. Like they are two different units and if the muskets are next to the horses then enemy horse cannot charge them?

I think I remember reading about some germanic unit of horsemen where each rider had an extra skirmisher that like held/ran along side the horse to accompany them while riding and then jumped off in the melee to add infantry power to their cav units once in combat. Anyone remember that from somewhere?

That is correct. The Germanic Cavalry commanded by Labanieus in support of Caesar in Gaul had cavalry units that transported light/medium infantry supposedly via a saddle grip on the side. They provided a solid punch in support of the cavalry or could be transported quickly to take a strategic position.

cool, link to source/description? it would be cool to see if such a thing could be modded in, like cav giving medium infantry a ride

[TimDee58]

it was also depicted in the film Alexander a few years back, not the best film ever but the best depiction of the Macedonian army in action that I've seen

[desicat]

that's neat. Like they are two different units and if the muskets are next to the horses then enemy horse cannot charge them?

I think I remember reading about some germanic unit of horsemen where each rider had an extra skirmisher that like held/ran along side the horse to accompany them while riding and then jumped off in the melee to add infantry power to their cav units once in combat. Anyone remember that from somewhere?

That is correct. The Germanic Cavalry commanded by Labanieus in support of Caesar in Gaul had cavalry units that transported light/medium infantry supposedly via a saddle grip on the side. They provided a solid punch in support of the cavalry or could be transported quickly to take a strategic position.

cool, link to source/description? it would be cool to see if such a thing could be modded in, like cav giving medium infantry a ride

Here is a quote taken from WarHistoryOnline;

"In battle, a swift German light infantry soldier ran alongside each cavalryman, clinging to the horse’s mane to keep pace. He protected the cavalryman’s flanks and stabbed at the enemy horse. Caesar valued his German warriors so highly, that he replaced their pony-like horses with the larger steeds of his bodyguard, tribunes, and knights."

There are better descriptions in Caesars book, The Conquest of Gaul, but I would have to dig it out.

[Athos1660]

Here is a quote taken from WarHistoryOnline;

"In battle, a swift German light infantry soldier ran alongside each cavalryman, clinging to the horse’s mane to keep pace. He protected the cavalryman’s flanks and stabbed at the enemy horse. Caesar valued his German warriors so highly, that he replaced their pony-like horses with the larger steeds of his bodyguard, tribunes, and knights."

There are better descriptions in Caesars book, The Conquest of Gaul, but I would have to dig it out.

Book 1, chapter 48 :

Ariovistus all this time (...) engaged daily in cavalry skirmishes. The method of battle in which the Germans had practiced themselves was this. There were 6,000 horse, and as many very active and courageous foot, one of whom each of the horse selected out of the whole army for his own protection. By these [foot] they were constantly accompanied in their engagements; to these the horse retired; these on any emergency rushed forward; if any one, upon receiving a very severe wound, had fallen from his horse, they stood around him: if it was necessary to advance further than usual, or to retreat more rapidly, so great, from practice, was their swiftness, that, supported by the manes of the horses, they could keep pace with their speed.

[Athos1660]

Titus Livius (Livy), The History of Rome, Book 26.4

At length they (the Romans) devised a clever plan by which they could make up for their inferiority in the mounted arm. [4] Young men of exceptional speed and agility were selected from all the legions and supplied with bucklers somewhat shorter than those used by the cavalry. Each was furnished with seven javelins, four feet long and tipped with iron heads similar to those on the darts of the velites. [5] The troopers each took one of these upon his horse and trained them to ride behind and leap down briskly at a given signal. [6] As soon as their daily training had given them sufficient confidence, the cavalry advanced against the Capuans, who were drawn up on the level ground between the Roman camp and the city walls. [7] As soon as they came within range the signal was given and the velites sprang down to the ground. The line of infantry thus formed made a sudden attack on the Capuan horse; shower after shower of javelins was flung at the men and horses all along the line. [8] A great many were wounded, and the novel and unexpected form of attack created widespread consternation. Seeing the enemy shaken the Roman cavalry charged home, and in the rout that followed they drove them with much loss right up to their gates. From that time the Romans had the superiority in their cavalry also. [9] The velites were subsequently incorporated in the legions. [10] This plan of combining infantry and cavalry in one force is said to have originated with one of the centurions-Q. Navius, and he received special honour from his commander in consequence.

[Athos1660]

Xenophon, On the Cavalry Commander, V, 6 :

Another way of exaggerating the apparent strength of your force is to arm the grooms (1) with lances or even imitation lances, and put them between the cavalrymen, whether you display the cavalry at the halt or wheel it into line. Thus the bulk of the company is bound to look denser and more massive.

(1) Each horseman had a ostler who groomed his horse and carried his weapons during the march.

[stockwellpete]

cool, link to source/description? it would be cool to see if such a thing could be modded in, like cav giving medium infantry a ride

I am not sure this needs to be modded in. Players can put skirmishers and the occasional infantry unit among their cavalry now.

[Athos1660]

it would be cool to see if such a thing could be modded in

Just the premises of an idea. I don't know whether it would be a good one.

There are already in game non-light cavalry able to shoot (bow 50%) : Tagmatic Lancers and archers, Byzantine lancers, Skythian nobles. Modding squads.cvs to add shooting capabiliy is very easy. Even I can do it.

What about a mixed unit :

• non-light cav + LF. There could be a unit with cav + javelin (for the Romans) and another with cav + bow (Germans, Gallic... ?) according to the texts above.

• APs could be reduced as the horsemen would have to wait for the foot. The Romans could have the javelinmen on horseback behind the rider though.

• Shooting capability : 100% (ie 240 LF for 240 horsemen) ? 50% ?

• When charged, those units would have to take a test about their shooting capability and could lose it, as LF could be killed or scattered during a cav charge. As there is currently in game a rally test for routed units, there could be a test to recover the lost shooting capability, meaning the scattered LF succeeded in gathering around their cavalry. This could be hard to mod though...

• ???

The question is : would it be historical ? interesting ?

[Athos1660]

that's neat. Like they are two different units and if the muskets are next to the horses then enemy horse cannot charge them?

Cavalry and commanded shot (CS) are indeed 2 separate units.
Commanded shot are a small unit of LF with 150 men, thus with very limited shooting power.

From the manual :
CS are "protected" when they are not attacking and have unbroken friendly non-light mounted troops in an adjacent tile (not including the 3 tiles to the commanded shot’s “rear”).

Protection:
a) Gives a (impact) +100 POA advantage against enemy mounted (provided that the Protected troops are not charging, and not Fragmented or Severely Disordered).
b) Cancels any POAs that the mounted may have (provided that the Protected troops are Steady – i.e. Not Disrupted, Moderately Disordered, Fragmented or Severely Disordered – and are not charging).
So it essentially changes the shot from being at a -100 or even -200 POA disadvantage against mounted troops to being at a +100 POA advantage.

CS, when 'protected', also exert a primary ZoC that Non-light troops can't ignore (unlike other LF), which is interesting for the nearby friendly cavalry as in P&S, there is no secondary ZoC.

Those units of detached musketeers walk/trot in-between cavalry units and, when very close to the enemy cavalry, shoot at them before the friendly cavalry could charge. If charged, they would try to hide behind the friendly cavalry unit or run to the nearby infantry unit.

Not sure such a mechanism/tactic applies to FoG2 (with its ZOC2) and to its timeframe.

[Athos1660]

LF who escort the cavalry could also act as an Impact capability for that non-light cavalry, like in-game Darts. They would add +x Impact PoA. And this capability could be lost and recovered after the charge, because of a test.

[TheGrayMouser]

Julius Caesar, De Bello Gallico, VII, 80 :

"The Gauls had scattered archers and light-armed infantry here and there, among their cavalry, to give relief to their retreating troops, and sustain the impetuosity of our cavalry. Several of our soldiers were unexpectedly wounded by these, and left the battle."

When I read Ceasars account, it sounds like his German Cavalry eventually charged the Gallic cavalry which fled and left their supporting light archers behind to be slaughtered! So, not sure if it helped too much!

[Athos1660]

When I read Ceasars account, it sounds like his German Cavalry eventually charged the Gallic cavalry which fled and left their supporting light archers behind to be slaughtered! So, not sure if it helped too much!

Neither do I think that the effectiveness of a tactic can be assessed from one single battle report, nor that Caesar was objective when speaking about Gauls.

Moreover, those archers wounded enemy horsemen and might have been killed at the end. Well, the same thing happened to lots of modern Commanded shots of the 16-17th century, didn't it ? They weren't immune. That's the danger of their job, being in the midst of cavalry charges.

Lastly, does Caesar speak of the same archers at the beginning and at the end of the text ? Weren't there any Gallic archers who weren't among the cavalry ?

Frankly, this text only allows us to know that Gauls had the idea of "scattering archers and light-armed infantry here and there, among their cavalry", not to assess their effectiveness and compared it with that of the (modern) Commanded shot.

When we spoke about commanded shot on P&S forums, I had the feeling you already did not like the idea of modern commanded shot and think it was useless, did you ? About modern CS, I tend to disagree with you. About ancient 'CS', I tend to agree with Caesar (until further notice) :
1) 'Several of (enemy) soldiers (could be) unexpectedly wounded by these, and left the battle'
2) If charged by enemy non-light cavalry when alone without friendly protective cavalry around, they will try to flee and be at risk of dying.
That's just the definition of CS...

(edit)
The archers mentioned at the end of the extract died "after fighting from noon almost to sunset" (line 20) according to Caesar...

[Gaznak]

Although the Julian vs Alemanni historical battle in game has this modelled as light foot interspersed with the horse, this seems like this sort of thing that would generally not be modelled at the current game scale, like how a bunch of the infantry in the decline and fall lists have " includes some archers" or similar in their unit descriptions while having zero shooting ability. The effect of the supporting archers is assumed as part of their poa, similarly the effect of having some infantry along for the ride could be part of the current barbarian cavalry poa.

[TheGrayMouser]

When I read Ceasars account, it sounds like his German Cavalry eventually charged the Gallic cavalry which fled and left their supporting light archers behind to be slaughtered! So, not sure if it helped too much!

Neither do I think that the effectiveness of a tactic can be assessed from one single battle report, nor that Caesar was objective when speaking about Gauls.

Moreover, those archers wounded enemy horsemen and might have been killed at the end. Well, the same thing happened to lots of modern Commanded shots of the 16-17th century, didn't it ? They weren't immune. That's the danger of their job, being in the midst of cavalry charges.

Lastly, does Caesar speak of the same archers at the beginning and at the end of the text ? Weren't there any Gallic archers who weren't among the cavalry ?

Frankly, this text only allows us to know that Gauls had the idea of "scattering archers and light-armed infantry here and there, among their cavalry", not to assess their effectiveness and compared it with that of the (modern) Commanded shot.

When we spoke about commanded shot on P&S forums, I had the feeling you already did not like the idea of modern commanded shot and think it was useless, did you ? About modern CS, I tend to disagree with you. About ancient 'CS', I tend to agree with Caesar (until further notice) :
1) 'Several of (enemy) soldiers (could be) unexpectedly wounded by these, and left the battle'
2) If charged by enemy non-light cavalry when alone without friendly protective cavalry around, they will try to flee and be at risk of dying.
That's just the definition of CS...

Well, I don't recall we had a huge disagreement. I tend to believe that in the P&S era inferior cavalry began incorporating them specifically so they could stand a chance versus superior cavalry. These men didnt come form nowhere either, they were stripped from the battalions and conceivaby denuded their fire power. Later its seems to have became a trend but by the 1700 it disappears completley.

So in some of the samples you provided, 2 were sieges. The "scattered" archers with the Gallic cavalry were there to cover a retreat of other troops, presumebly sally or large skirmish. The use here seems to be no different than the current game mechanic of having light foot with your cavalry.

Arovistus is described at conducting skirmish operation with his 6 thousand horse all day long ( the main armies encamped with apperantly neither willing to commit to full battle yet) The 6000 foot were there to provide close support, ie if the horse needed to, they could retreat behind the infantry, resupply , rest etc. Doubly if a fallen horsmen need aid , a foot warrior would rush to aid and get him to safety. It does not sound like the foot were activeley fighting side by side with the skirmishing horse...

The gauls having men run amongst them is interesting and I believe he greeks had something like that too at some point Antigoni?? perhaps? Yet Ceasar describes their horses as being ponies and awards them with larger Roman horses.. ( Since Roman horses were not big, the Gauls must truly have been pony size which make me want to suggest that the Gaulic cavaly NEEDED foot runners otherwise they could not compete with regular horse...)

I had never heard of the Roman one, it appears to have been a good tactic that freaked out the Capuan cavalry so they left the field and or campaign, Livius noting that the velites then went "subsequently back to the legions"
Basically a one trick pony here ...

Anyway, would it be worth coding such a thing where the actaul effect are questionable and it wasnt something that became a standard?

[MVP7]

How would commanded shot differ from current light infantry that already can perform the role of supporting cavalry and works great when used so too?