What do Panzer Corps veterans feel about PzC2?

[SSLConf_pewp3w]

boredatworks screenshots show exactly what my problem is.
I know, I have played PC1 much more than PC2, but in the PC1 screenshot I can immediately tell what every unit is.
In the PC2 screenshot:

- the german and russian infantry could be everything. I have no clue if they are paras, engineers or wehr infantry for germany and no clue if they are guards, conscripts, regulars or smg infantry for the soviets without checking.
- the german artillery is really hard to differentiate
- the german mobile artillery is almost not visible because of the plane. Is it a hummel or a wespe?
- the german plane above the recon unit is almost invisible because of the city in the background. One could say: "good, camo works", but thats not good for ease of gameplay
- the german spat at the top is really hard to see because of the angle. Is it a jagdpanther or a jagdpanzer 70? Those look very different in reality and should be easily distinguishable, but it takes me a few seconds to figure it out, same goes for the panther in the bottom right.
- the german planes are all the same size. I have absolutely no clue what the german str13 plane in the hex in the top middle above the other two planes is. I guess its a me410, but it could easily be a strat bomber.

[George_Parr]

boredatworks screenshots show exactly what my problem is.
I know, I have played PC1 much more than PC2, but in the PC1 screenshot I can immediately tell what every unit is.
In the PC2 screenshot:

- the german and russian infantry could be everything. I have no clue if they are paras, engineers or wehr infantry for germany and no clue if they are guards, conscripts, regulars or smg infantry for the soviets without checking.
- the german artillery is really hard to differentiate
- the german mobile artillery is almost not visible because of the plane. Is it a hummel or a wespe?
- the german plane above the recon unit is almost invisible because of the city in the background. One could say: "good, camo works", but thats not good for ease of gameplay
- the german spat at the top is really hard to see because of the angle. Is it a jagdpanther or a jagdpanzer 70? Those look very different in reality and should be easily distinguishable, but it takes me a few seconds to figure it out, same goes for the panther in the bottom right.
- the german planes are all the same size. I have absolutely no clue what the german str13 plane in the hex in the top middle above the other two planes is. I guess its a me410, but it could easily be a strat bomber.

Some of the units are definately a bit harder to differentiate, especially the planes. I think it has a lot to do with the angle though. Even more so in combination with lots of city-hexes. Here you have much more of a top-down view, while PC1 was mostly from the side. Tanks are pretty recognizeable when seen from the side (or just slightly tilted), but not so much when you mostly see their top instead. The different angle also means that here the planes will partially cover the ground unit, while in PC1 there was less overlap due to the lower angle.

That being said, I think the Panther and Jagdpanther are pretty easy to identify. There are also some details one can focus on. E.g. a Hummel has the eight small road-wheels of a Pz IV, while the Wespe has the five medium-sized wheels of a Pz II, so the unit in the screenshot should definately be a Wespe

[RandomAttack]

That kind of makes the point doesn't it? If you have to take time to "count road wheels" to tell what a unit is, that is time you are not playing the game. I think we all acknowledge there are work-arounds, etc., but you shouldn't HAVE to. It is a distractor. It detracts from immersion. I must take time to change camo schemes just so I can tell **at a glance** what certain units are. Not optimal.

[ErissN6]

The game offers so many options to customize the way you play it that you probably can find a way to get around any suboptimal design issue.

Yes, but the 2D view option of PC2 is less beautifull and even usefull (at now, boring bugs) than in PC1, PC2 is a let down about its 2D option to customize the way to play.

[George_Parr]

That kind of makes the point doesn't it? If you have to take time to "count road wheels" to tell what a unit is, that is time you are not playing the game. I think we all acknowledge there are work-arounds, etc., but you shouldn't HAVE to. It is a distractor. It detracts from immersion. I must take time to change camo schemes just so I can tell **at a glance** what certain units are. Not optimal.

I disagree. This is something you get used to. Maybe you count the wheels the first 2-3 times, but at some point you automatically know "lots of small wheels = Hummel" and "a bunch of medium wheels = Wespe". That in itself isn't any different than getting to know the design of the units in PC1. Units have distinct features, and it takes some time to get to know them, regardless of whether they look like in PC1 or like in PC2. It's not like you start playing PC1 and immediately can spot the difference between the various forms of the T-34 either. It takes time to get accustomed to, but once that has happened your brain automatically does the job for you.

Some things may be hard to decide, like I said, the angle doesn't really help. But stuff like the difference between the Hummel and the Wespe is really easy to recognize once you have come to know the unit-designs that exist in the game.

[Retributarr]

'Both sides' of the "Visual-Display" controversy!:

My take on this on-going discussion... is that... "Both sides make good argumentation". Therefore!... the solution as I can only see it from my viewpoint... is that 'PzC1' "Style-Graphics" should be seriously considered for those who would prefer to use them instead of the "3-D Graphics".

Another feature that could be contemplated for those who prefer to mostly use '3-D' , would be to be able to momentarily switch from '3-D' to '2-D' for the purpose of clarity/clarification of the image at hand.

As well... there are discussions about the difficulty of seeing/or recognition of 'Aircraft' in '3-D'!. Perhaps... a feature could be incorporated for the player to make adjustments to the 'Size' of the aircraft... as well as to adjust its viewing angle, its 'Brightness'... or what-ever other additional improvement to make rapid recognition as simple as possible!. I'm sure that you all... should have many more ideas than those I have presented... for consideration... in making this Game more enjoyable and less vexating to play.

[Horseman]

'Both sides' of the "Visual-Display" controversy!:

My take on this on-going discussion... is that... "Both sides make good argumentation". Therefore!... the solution as I can only see it from my viewpoint... is that 'PzC1' "Style-Graphics" should be seriously considered for those who would prefer to use them instead of the "3-D Graphics".

Another feature that could be contemplated for those who prefer to mostly use '3-D' , would be to be able to momentarily switch from '3-D' to '2-D' for the purpose of clarity/clarification of the image at hand.

As well... there are discussions about the difficulty of seeing/or recognition of 'Aircraft' in '3-D'!. Perhaps... a feature could be incorporated for the player to make adjustments to the 'Size' of the aircraft... as well as to adjust its viewing angle, its 'Brightness'... or what-ever other feature to make rapid recognition as simple as possible!. I'm sure that you all... should have many more ideas than those I have presented... for consideration... in making this Game more enjoyable and less vexating to play.

This guy makes sense.

I've grown used to the 3d units now and can mostly work out what's what!

I still get mixed up with bf109s and stuka early on and I'll be damned if I can tell my infantry apart (except HW types) but everything else is falling into place.

That being said - there's no harm in giving people the option to going 2d. Everyone gets to play the way they prefere!

[Rudankort]

The problem with identifying units from multiple angles is of course unavoidable in a 3D game, but it is nothing new either. Even 2D Panzer General 2 had it. In theory, we could provide an option to always revert units to default angle (profile?) after every action. It won't make units as easy to recognize as in Panzer Corps (because of a more top-down perspective), but it might help somewhat. Would you guys use such an option if it was available?

2D strategic mode which exists now is an equivalent of strategic mode in PzC. So yes, it is not as playable as tactical map in PzC. Making a 2D mode similar to Panzer Corps is on the wish list and might happen at some point, but it's a lot of work and not top priority right now.

In patch 4 (coming shortly), yellow markings on german aircraft have been tweaked, so it will be easier to tell Bf109 from Stuka in early war. Personally, I often launch air missions from unit list. This helps to pick the right unit easier and at the same time reduce scrolling if the base is far away from the target hex.

[PoorOldSpike]

..the difficulty of seeing/or recognition of Aircraft in 3D..

Agreed, here's a typical screen containing 4 hard-to-see planes-



But toggling 'Air Mode' like this helps us see them better-



But personally I give them a crazy blue camo like this below (light blue for fighters, darker blue for bombers), totally unrealistic I know, but at least I can see where they are on the normal map better..
(we can also give enemy planes a crazy colour (pink, lime green etc) so we can see them better too)



SUGGESTION to the devs (bless their little cotton socks)- introduce an "Aircraft outline" graphics option that puts a white outline around all aircraft to make them stand out like I've photoshopped to the planes below. (Or even better give us a choice of outline colour (white/red/blue/etc) so we can choose the one that stands out best against whatever the map terrain colour is.)

[Demetrios_of_Messene]

In boredatwork's PzC screenshot, can you quickly tell how many and what type of aircraft are shown? Would a non-gamer WW2 expert be able to spot and identify the 3 planes at the top of the picture sharing the same tile with ground units? And, if so, after how much time?

I could go on with this comparison, but this is not important to me. The important thing is to improve the interface by making the units in PzC2 more distinguishable, which would be welcome by everybody.

I find PoorOldSpike's suggestion for an optional outline on aircraft excellent!

The problem with identifying units from multiple angles is of course unavoidable in a 3D game, but it is nothing new either. Even 2D Panzer General 2 had it. In theory, we could provide an option to always revert units to default angle (profile?) after every action. It won't make units as easy to recognize as in Panzer Corps (because of a more top-down perspective), but it might help somewhat. Would you guys use such an option if it was available?

No, I for one would not use it, but I am already content with 3D. I guess it matters to hear the opinion of people "addicted" to 2D.
(Much appreciate that you are considering to change the colours on some units, this is a very welcome idea)

[SSLConf_pewp3w]

I would like the option to revert to a default angle. Maybe also so that it definitely shows in which mode a unit is (eg. 88 aa or at mode)

PoorOldSpikes Suggestion is excellent.

@George_Parr: I sure can figure out which unit is which, and I am very sure that the more I play, the easier I will be able to differentiate the units, but I would rather spend my time playing. I am not against 3D per se, but it should not make it harder to play. It sucks when I have to click on multiple planes until I find the one I want.

And yes, I can pick my planes from the unit list, but those are all unnecessary clicks.

[PoorOldSpike]

We can always use the games excellent camouflage option as an aid to vehicle recognition.
For example below I've given the tank a grey coat, the Marder a stripey one, the Wespe a spotty one, and the flamethrowing halftrack a whitish one.
But it's not so easy with infantry because the figures are small.
Suggestion- a future update could perhaps put a coloured bar under infantry's strength plates, for example here I've photoshopped a blue bar under the Wehr Infantry unit, a red bar under the Gebirgsjager, and a green bar under the Fallschirmjager-

[Retributarr]

Quote: ...by PoorOldSpike "Suggestion- a future update could perhaps put a coloured bar under infantry's strength plates, for example here I've photoshopped a blue bar under the Wehr Infantry unit, a red bar under the Gebirgsjager, and a green bar under the Fallschirmjager"-

Yes!... Definitely!... a 'Perfect-Solution'!!!.

[Rood]

SUGGESTION to the devs (bless their little cotton socks)- introduce an "Aircraft outline" graphics option that puts a white outline around all aircraft to make them stand out like I've photoshopped to the planes below. (Or even better give us a choice of outline colour (white/red/blue/etc) so we can choose the one that stands out best against whatever the map terrain colour is.)

Excellent suggestion! Preferably under a hot key.
PS great photoshop skills

[PoorOldSpike]

Another suggestion to make it easier to spot planes would be for a future update to have a Hotkey that makes planes disappear completely.
That would not only let us see what ground units they might be obscuring beneath them, but by quickly toggling the hotkey on and off several times, it'd make the planes "blink" or "flash" on/off all over the map, therefore making it easy to see their locations.

[Retributarr]

Suggestion Meister!:
by PoorOldSpike » Mon May 11, 2020 2:52 pm
"Another suggestion to make it easier to spot planes:"

I don't know what you're drinking???... but!... nevertheless... you're on a 'Roll'!. Keep those suggestions and ideas coming... so far they're very good!.

[adiekmann]

Some excellent suggestions, especially with regard to different classes of infantry which is definitely needed, but recognition of air units isn't my biggest problem. I've gotten used to it or used different camo schemes to differentiate between them. But selecting them...

I liked the PC1 method of being able to toggle between ground and air units that share the same hex. The TAB key did this well, or you could double click on that tile to accomplish the same thing.

Instead, I waste too much time clicking on the unit I want, be it the air or ground unit. You have to aim your mouse pointer very precisely. Not impossible to do, but does slow my game play down and still results in many misclicks. Same is true if you want to click on the occupied town hex to check its name, though this isn't anywhere nearly as important.

The units that "hide" from my view that are the worst are the smaller towed PAK and some towed artillery pieces. It's happened where I would know my 10.5 cm gun is in that hex, and I still can't see it! It's like camouflaged in the town hex!

[SSLConf_pewp3w]

We can always use the games excellent camouflage option as an aid to vehicle recognition.
For example below I've given the tank a grey coat, the Marder a stripey one, the Wespe a spotty one, and the flamethrowing halftrack a whitish one.

Yes, the camo is a good workaround, but it still is a workaround. It should not be basically mandatory to differentiate units.

[PoorOldSpike]

Incidentally here's an old screenshot from 'Order of Battle' demonstrating the ingame option to put coloured outlines around units to help see them better-

[Schepel]

I went through the grand campaign three times.

I loved the old panzer corps, but this game is so much better in terms of gameplay that I couldn't go back. I just wish there was a bit more content. I am a sucker for grand campaigns and from Poland to the US, at every step of the way there could be more scenarios and just a bit more use out of a fantastic variety of options.