Command and Control mod (was Tournament mode) . . .

[cromlechi]

(off-topic) I would really like to test those Anarchy charges I've never played with !

plus one, This is my biggest frustration that the people who want to make the game like chess and blame the system everytime somethings happens they don't like have forced the removal of this very realistic game mechanic which made it feel more like a wargame. Very sad day. Please bring back impetuous/anarchy charges

[stockwellpete]

plus one, This is my biggest frustration that the people who want to make the game like chess and blame the system everytime somethings happens they don't like have forced the removal of this very realistic game mechanic which made it feel more like a wargame. Very sad day. Please bring back impetuous/anarchy charges

To be fair "anarchy charges" were never part of FOG2 from the outset.

[rbodleyscott]

plus one, This is my biggest frustration that the people who want to make the game like chess and blame the system everytime somethings happens they don't like have forced the removal of this very realistic game mechanic which made it feel more like a wargame. Very sad day. Please bring back impetuous/anarchy charges

To be fair "anarchy charges" were never part of FOG2 from the outset.

For the reason that cromlechi cites.

[stockwellpete]

For the reason that cromlechi cites.

Did you want to include them?

[rbodleyscott]

For the reason that cromlechi cites.

Did you want to include them?

Not especially. While I acknowledge that Anarchy charges were realistic (though perhaps overdone in FOG1), I was not really a fan.

But a lot of people really hated them, so they were left out of FOG2.

[stockwellpete]

Not especially. While I acknowledge that Anarchy charges were realistic (though perhaps overdone), I was not really a fan.

Can we poll this? I know any result will really represent the vociferous MP group more than the SP community, but there does seem to be quite a bit of support for the idea. How difficult would it be to make a mod for this if the idea is well supported? Perhaps the effects could be toned down a little bit in any new mod?

[desicat]

Not especially. While I acknowledge that Anarchy charges were realistic (though perhaps overdone), I was not really a fan.

Can we poll this? I know any result will really represent the vociferous MP group more than the SP community, but there does seem to be quite a bit of support for the idea. How difficult would it be to make a mod for this if the idea is well supported? Perhaps the effects could be toned down a little bit in any new mod?

or a Global Option that could be selected or deselected?

[rbodleyscott]

Not especially. While I acknowledge that Anarchy charges were realistic (though perhaps overdone), I was not really a fan.

Can we poll this? I know any result will really represent the vociferous MP group more than the SP community, but there does seem to be quite a bit of support for the idea. How difficult would it be to make a mod for this if the idea is well supported? Perhaps the effects could be toned down a little bit in any new mod?

As you say, you would be polling grognards.

We already have enough problems with people who don't "get" the system writing bad reviews on STEAM after a few hours' play. Anarchy charges would exacerbate that problem.

So yes, you could do it as a mod, but it is vanishingly unlikely that it will go in the vanilla game, for this reason.

or a Global Option that could be selected or deselected?

Similarly we are not keen on official "Optional" rules, because they fragment the player base. (As would, of course, running tournaments under modded game rules.)

This is an issue which should not be underestimated. By providing too many rules options, or house rules (mods), you can easily kill off an MP system as a result of fragmentation.

[desicat]

Not especially. While I acknowledge that Anarchy charges were realistic (though perhaps overdone), I was not really a fan.

Can we poll this? I know any result will really represent the vociferous MP group more than the SP community, but there does seem to be quite a bit of support for the idea. How difficult would it be to make a mod for this if the idea is well supported? Perhaps the effects could be toned down a little bit in any new mod?

As you say, you would be polling grognards.

We already have enough problems with people who don't "get" the system writing bad reviews on STEAM after a few hours' play. Anarchy charges would exacerbate that problem.

So yes, you could do it as a mod, but it is vanishingly unlikely that it will go in the vanilla game, for this reason.

or a Global Option that could be selected or deselected?

Similarly we are not keen on official "Optional" rules, because they fragment the player base. (As would, of course, running tournaments under modded game rules.)

This is an issue which should not be underestimated. By providing too many rules options, you can easily kill off an MP system as a result of fragmentation.

I have to say one of the things I really like is the "odd chance" that a unit like Peoni Foot may pursue a defeated foe "due to inexperience". The anarchy charge seemingly (I never played FOG1 so I don't know) adds this kind of flavor, especially if it could be controlled somewhat by the proximity of a General. I guess Sweetness may have to dig out the code of FOG1 for a possible mod to try?

Not sure how it fragments the fan base as it would only be an option. For single players vs the AI I would think it would add more replay.

[stockwellpete]

As you say, you would be polling grognards.

We already have enough problems with people who don't "get" the system writing bad reviews on STEAM after a few hours' play. Anarchy charges would exacerbate that problem.

So yes, you could do it as a mod, but it is vanishingly unlikely that it will go in the vanilla game, for this reason.

Well, it is just that I am a bit surprised by the proportion of posts that are very enthusiastic about the idea. I didn't realise that it would have this sort of support. A poll would certainly concentrate minds on the issue and throw up all sorts of pros and cons, I guess. But if there was still a clear majority in favour of it then the effort to provide a mod would certainly be worthwhile. I assume that we would need your help with the mod as it would be creating a brand new feature for the game rather than adjusting something that is already there.

Similarly we are not keen on official "Optional" rules, because they fragment the player base. (As would, of course, running tournaments under modded game rules.)

This is an issue which should not be underestimated. By providing too many rules options, or house rules (mods), you can easily kill off an MP system as a result of fragmentation.

I understand the issue you are raising here but I am wondering why "optional rules" are necessarily seen as a negative. Usually, if a game offers more options then it will tend to do a bit better, I would have thought. And might not existing players stick around longer if there were these occasional introductions of variations in gameplay? And maybe that would translate into more sales of DLC's?

Having said that, I can understand fully why your main tournaments (e.g. automated, FOG2DL, KO) should stick to the vanilla version of the game so as to be as inclusive as possible. But I think smaller niche tournaments (say 8-12 players) could use these types of mods without damaging the player base too much.

[Jagger2002]

This is an issue which should not be underestimated. By providing too many rules options, or house rules (mods), you can easily kill off an MP system as a result of fragmentation.

For me, that was a problem with the Talonsoft ACW and Nap games. 20 or so options available and some people would refuse to play with certain specific options or combinations of options. Sometimes it was a real pain in the neck reaching an agreement on what options to use. So much less of a headache just to play a game without any sort of negotiation required.

[SnuggleBunnies]

Not to mention that it's hard enough for new players to learn one set of rules. Just yesterday I figured out a detail I had missed about Heavy Weapon POA in Sengoku Jidai, and I've been playing that game for 4 years!

[cromlechi]

I don't like optional rules either because you end up with many different types of game. Remember the fog of war business in FoG 1 and there was an HPS strategy game that you needed a manual just to work out what optional rules to select. I would welcome a poll on anarchy charges. I'd love to see Berserkers and Gallic heavy foot breaking ranks to get the battle going. That's a point perhaps it could be introduced for beserkers as they surely were so high they would not have obey any orders.

[rbodleyscott]

Not to mention that it's hard enough for new players to learn one set of rules. Just yesterday I figured out a detail I had missed about Heavy Weapon POA in Sengoku Jidai, and I've been playing that game for 4 years!

Yeah, I feel a duty to guard against creeping grognardization (is that a word?) of the game, even if it might seem I am just being stubborn, and even though grognards might be our most devoted audience.

Potential new players are not on the forums, so they can't speak up for themselves (and even if they could they would not know what they should be speaking against).

[stockwellpete]

I think all these new ideas are coming now because a lot of us are under lockdown and we have had a bit more time to think about things in more detail. At the moment a new mod seems to be coming out of the Schweetness factory every day and I do think it is probably the best way to look at new ideas if just one variable is changed in any single mod. But eventually I think the logic will be for some of these mods to coalesce into bigger ones, so I don't think we will necessarily end up with a great long paralysing list of options. That is something to guard against at any rate. I have called this thread "Tournament Mode" but really it should probably be called "Command and Control mod" now because of the main issues that are being raised within it.

I also feel that there might be more space for some variations once the main development cycle of FOG2 has been completed and all the DLC's have been released. I estimate that now we are roughly two-thirds of the way through. We still have all the later medieval stuff to come (probably 3, or maybe 4 DLC's) and there is a bit more Biblical, I believe as well. Originally I had planned 12 seasons for the FOG2DL, but because there has been a bit of a hiatus (with Empires coming out) I am now thinking that there might be time for 15 seasons altogether, taking us to the end of 2022. By then I expect all the DLC's will be out, but I am sure that there will still be lots of players about and it is then they might appreciate some of these variations a lot more. After all, there are still people playing FOG1 even though development stopped 3-4 years ago now.

[rbodleyscott]

Originally I had planned 12 seasons for the FOG2DL, but because there has been a bit of a hiatus (with Empires coming out) I am now thinking that there might be time for 15 seasons altogether, taking us to the end of 2022.

What happens then? The End of the World? The public has a right to know.

[Jackblock]

Not to mention that it's hard enough for new players to learn one set of rules. Just yesterday I figured out a detail I had missed about Heavy Weapon POA in Sengoku Jidai, and I've been playing that game for 4 years!

Yeah, I feel a duty to guard against creeping grognardization (is that a word?) of the game, even if it might seem I am just being stubborn, and even though grognards might be our most devoted audience.

Potential new players are not on the forums, so they can't speak up for themselves (and even if they could they would not know what they should be speaking against).

I’m a new player to the game and totally on board with the idea of anarchy charge or any new rules that try to simulate reality. This game page on steam praises its realism and this was the primary reason many people bought it. Maybe you are underestimating the amount of realism and complexity potential new players desire in the game

[stockwellpete]

What happens then? The End of the World? The public has a right to know.

Slippers and cocoa for me, that's for sure.

[Gaznak]

I would welcome anarchy charges but personally I don't take these games that seriously so having my FOG1 era raw cataphractarii suddenly feel born-again-hard and obliterate themselves against some spearmen was a source of morbid comedy more than anything else. I can definitely appreciate that others will feel differently.

[Cunningcairn]

Not especially. While I acknowledge that Anarchy charges were realistic (though perhaps overdone), I was not really a fan.

Can we poll this? I know any result will really represent the vociferous MP group more than the SP community, but there does seem to be quite a bit of support for the idea. How difficult would it be to make a mod for this if the idea is well supported? Perhaps the effects could be toned down a little bit in any new mod?

Polls always worked well in the past. If the mods were tested in one or two sections of the digital league any fragmentation of the player base could be managed. Also the poll would be targeting those that will be affected and new players that are not on the forum wouldn't be using the mod. C'mon let's do it