Accumulating hits and taking cohesion tests

[pyrrhus]

Ok here's another one I will try my best to explain .
I have two bg's of 4 stands each fighting one bg of 4 stands
one BG fighting the enemys BG (lined up perfectly) and my second BG providing an overlap

A= enemy B= my first unit C= second unit

AA
AA
BBCC
BBCC

OK we melee and I score two hits from BG ,B and two hits from BG ,C Total 4 hits
He scores three hits on BG ,B . how are cohesion tests taken ?
I thought ok ,I did total of 4 to 3 you lost .we each take a death roll and you take a cohesion test . Thats not how this group saw it .They said I also have to take a cohesion test because BG,B lost the combat to BG,A (2hits vs 3 hits ) of course i failed the test !!!

[nikgaukroger]

Ok here's another one I will try my best to explain .
I have two bg's of 4 stands each fighting one bg of 4 stands
one BG fighting the enemys BG (lined up perfectly) and my second BG providing an overlap

A= enemy B= my first unit C= second unit

AA
AA
BBCC
BBCC

OK we melee and I score two hits from BG ,B and two hits from BG ,C Total 4 hits
He scores three hits on BG ,B . how are cohesion tests taken ?
I thought ok ,I did total of 4 to 3 you lost .we each take a death roll and you take a cohesion test . Thats not how this group saw it .They said I also have to take a cohesion test because BG,B lost the combat to BG,A (2hits vs 3 hits ) of course i failed the test !!!

You look at what happens to each BG.


BG A has taken 4 hits and inflicted 3 and so has lost the combat and must take a CT and make a Death Roll with no modifier.

BG B has taken 3 hits and inflicted 2 and so has lost the combat and must take a CT and make a Death Roll with no modifier.

BG C has taken 0 hits and inflicted 2 so has won the combat and having taken less than 3 hits (nil in fact) does not take Death Roll.

In other words the group was right

[johnnyspys]

In a variation to this question.

AAAAAA
BBBBBCCCC
BBBBBCCCC

Battle group A Turks
Battle Group B Byzantine
Battle Group C Byzantine

Battle group B scores 1 hits on A; Battle group A scores 1 hit on B
Battle group C scores 3 hits on A; Battle group A scores 3 hits on C

Is this a tie, or does someone have to make a cohesion test?

A second question...
Lets say A scored two hits to B and three to C and B score one hit and C scored no hits.
What would be the total cohesion points penalty for B and then for C? For example would B suffer from a -1 because at least 2 more hits were received than inflicted in close combat for both battle groups?

[petedalby]

Battle group B scores 1 hits on A; Battle group A scores 1 hit on B
Battle group C scores 3 hits on A; Battle group A scores 3 hits on C

Yes - this is a tie. No BG takes a cohesion test. A and C both have to make a death roll.

What would be the total cohesion points penalty for B and then for C? For example would B suffer from a -1 because at least 2 more hits were received than inflicted in close combat for both battle groups?

B suffers a -1 as it lost, but not by 2 more hits.

C suffers a -2 as it lost and suffered 2 more than it inflicted.

Hope that helps

Pete

[johnnyspys]

This does help....last question for today...I argued the following scenario the other day.
AAAAAA
BBBCCCC
BBBCCCC

Lets say B scores 1 hit to A and A scores 1 hit to B
Lets say C scores 3 hits to A and A scores 3 hits to C

A needs to make a death roll against 4 with a +2 for a tie
C needs to make a death roll against 3 with a +2 for a tie
B needs to make a death roll against 1 with a +2 for a tie (essentially automatically making the roll).

Was I correct.

Battle group B scores 1 hits on A; Battle group A scores 1 hit on B
Battle group C scores 3 hits on A; Battle group A scores 3 hits on C

Yes - this is a tie. No BG takes a cohesion test. A and C both have to make a death roll.

What would be the total cohesion points penalty for B and then for C? For example would B suffer from a -1 because at least 2 more hits were received than inflicted in close combat for both battle groups?

B suffers a -1 as it lost, but not by 2 more hits.

C suffers a -2 as it lost and suffered 2 more than it inflicted.

Hope that helps

Pete

[hammy]

This does help....last question for today...I argued the following scenario the other day.
AAAAAA
BBBCCCC
BBBCCCC

Lets say B scores 1 hit to A and A scores 1 hit to B
Lets say C scores 3 hits to A and A scores 3 hits to C

A needs to make a death roll against 4 with a +2 for a tie
C needs to make a death roll against 3 with a +2 for a tie
B needs to make a death roll against 1 with a +2 for a tie (essentially automatically making the roll).

Was I correct.

Yes.

What matters is how each BG has faired.

If a BG takes more hits than it inflicts then it has to take a CT and a death roll with no bonus
If a BG inflicts at least as many hits as it takes then it only takes a death roll with a +2 bonus

It is possible for both engaged BGs in a combat to lose....

Consider this:

Code: Select all

2211
  AABB

BG 1 is fighting BG A. BGs 2 and B are acting as overlaps. If BG 1 and A inflict the same number of hits but BG 2 and B also inflict one or more hits then both BG 1 and A will have received more hits than they inflicted and both will have to take a CT.

[shall]

Indeed it is by BG from ITS OWN PERSPECTIVE of whether it lost or not. You will find that in addition to working well this creates quite a bit of simlicity in complex situations.

As people are posting scenarios here it is actually quite possible for all the BGs fighting frontally to lose and have to take CTs. Happened once in a test game.


AABBCCDD
....1122.....

11 beats BB 2-1
22 Beats CC 3-2

Both overlapping BGs do 2 hits each.

Now from their own perspective BB CC 11 and 22 have ALL lost, and all need to test CTs and DRolls.

Si

[SirGarnet]

Now from their own perspective BB CC 11 and 22 have ALL lost, and all need to test CTs and DRolls.

Si

and if all four BGs each rout, AA and DD pursue 11 and 22 respectively if they are not fighting other enemy (except only as overlap).

[johnnyspys]

Sorry to beat a dead horse but one more question.

Lets say someone has knights against three battle groups.

Example one:

KKKKKK
AAABBCCDD
BBCCDD
K hits A for zero Hits, A hits K for one hit
K hits B for zero hits, B hits k for one hit
K hits C for four hits, C gets one hit.

Does this mean the following:
A did more damage than it took so they passed and do not have to take a cohesion test
B did more damage than it took so they passed and do not have to take a cohesion test
C did less damage than it took so they must take a cohesion test
K did more damage than it took (4 to 3) so they passed and do not have to take a cohesion test.


Scenario two:
KKKKKK
AABBBCCDD
AABBBCCDD

K does 2 hits to B; B does one hit
K does 2 hits to C; C does one hit
K does 1 hit to D; D does one hit
A does three hits to K
Results
B fails must take a cohesion
C fails must take a cohesion
D ties
K fails because the total hits are more than the total damage he inflicted.

are these two assessments correct?

[hammy]

Sorry to beat a dead horse but one more question.

Lets say someone has knights against three battle groups.

Example one:

KKKKKK
AAABBCCDD
BBCCDD
K hits A for zero Hits, A hits K for one hit
K hits B for zero hits, B hits k for one hit
K hits C for four hits, C gets one hit.

Does this mean the following:
A did more damage than it took so they passed and do not have to take a cohesion test
B did more damage than it took so they passed and do not have to take a cohesion test
C did less damage than it took so they must take a cohesion test
K did more damage than it took (4 to 3) so they passed and do not have to take a cohesion test.


Scenario two:
KKKKKK
AABBBCCDD
AABBBCCDD

K does 2 hits to B; B does one hit
K does 2 hits to C; C does one hit
K does 1 hit to D; D does one hit
A does three hits to K
Results
B fails must take a cohesion
C fails must take a cohesion
D ties
K fails because the total hits are more than the total damage he inflicted.

are these two assessments correct?

Your diagrams have not quite come out right but looking at the text explanation you seem to be spot on. In the last example I am not sure how A inflicts 3 hits as it looks like it is only fighting as an overlap but if K was fighting A as well and did no hits that would be fine.

All that matters for any given BG is has it received more hits than it inflicted. If the answer is yes then you must take a CT.

[marioslaz]

Yes, it seems all ok

[johnnyspys]

Damn you are correct my scenario was messed up...lets try it again...
Scenario two:
---KKKKKK
AABBBCCDD
AABBBCCDD

K does 1 hit to B; B does zero hits
K does 2 hits to C; C does one hit
K does 0 hits to D; D does 0 hits
A does two hits to K
Results
B fails must take a cohesion (took two hits gave zero hits)
C fails must take a cohesion (took two hits gave one hit)
D ties (took no hits gave no hits)
K fails because the total hits are more than the total damage he inflicted. (took four hits gave three hits)
A being an overlap does not have to take a cohesion test.


Thanks for all the help ahead of time!

[petedalby]

You have it spot on.

Pete