Japanese lists in Empire of the Dragon

[rbodleyscott]

Will there alls be elements of LH or LF (Ashigaru Bows)

There will not be any LF or LH. Ashigaru bows will be MF.

What should I concentrate on painting, Samurai CV and followers yes, how about monks and or peasent mobs (time consuming to paint).

Monks are an ally contingent. You won't need very many peasant Mobs.

[rbodleyscott]

I think this army is probably niftier in its speed and width and if the BGs can be 4s it can rival the dominate swarm of 18 BGs.

Now why would we allow them to be in 4s?

[SirGarnet]

There will not be any LF or LH.

No skirmishers!? I suppose next you'll say there are no ninjas!

[Berserk27]

Just two questions:

1/ During the period between 1550 and 1600, the Ashigaru Yari are Medium foot Off spear or Heavy foot off spear or we have the choice?

2/ As the list of mid republican roman with a number of hastati for a number of triarii, the samurai list will have this type of limit?

1. The FOG period ends in 1500.
2. 1 BG of followers/ashigaru per BG of separately deployed samurai cavalry.

Oupps Mistakes;)

I want to say 1450 and 1500.

Thanks.

[rbodleyscott]

1/ During the period between 1450 and 1500, the Ashigaru Yari are Medium foot Off spear or Heavy foot off spear or we have the choice?

MF

There are very few HF in Empires of the Dragon, and no good ones. Our reading of the history is that Far Eastern fighting styles (and interaction with mounted troops) fit better with MF.

[Berserk27]

1/ During the period between 1450 and 1500, the Ashigaru Yari are Medium foot Off spear or Heavy foot off spear or we have the choice?

MF

There are very few HF in Empires of the Dragon, and no good ones. Our reading of the history is that Far Eastern fighting styles (and interaction with mounted troops) fit better with MF.

Dismonted samourai are also MF?

[rbodleyscott]

Dismonted samourai are also MF?

Yup.

[Berserk27]

Dismonted samourai are also MF?

Yup.

Ok thank,and last question (just to my curiosity and know what base I must use) for the period after 1550, the samourai and ashigaru yari are also Mf or HF

Thanks and thank you for your patience!

[dave_r]

Is there any evidence of Samurai dismounting to fight on foot?

I presume the Samurai will be allowed seven generals?

[DaiSho]

That's going to be one tough combination. Armoured Heavy weapon is tough enough. These guys will probably go through pikemen like they aren't there.

Ian

You mean when the pike are up a POA in impact? And the Japanese are getting an extra -1 CT when they loose?

Not at all what I mean. The single most damaging thing to Pike is disorder. With the amount of shooting (although it's Bow*) that these guys will be able to put out means that the pike will have to put up with 2-3 rounds of fire before they can get in. The Samurai aren't Shock, so can stand back and shoot, which means that the pike will HAVE to attack whether they want to or not, and even then there is a reasonable chance that they might go disordered.

I'd have to crunch the numbers, but at the surface I think I'd prefer to be equal points of Samurai (as rated above) than Pike.

Ian

[Ghaznavid]

Not at all what I mean. The single most damaging thing to Pike is disorder. With the amount of shooting (although it's Bow*) that these guys will be able to put out means that the pike will have to put up with 2-3 rounds of fire before they can get in. The Samurai aren't Shock, so can stand back and shoot, which means that the pike will HAVE to attack whether they want to or not, and even then there is a reasonable chance that they might go disordered.

I'd have to crunch the numbers, but at the surface I think I'd prefer to be equal points of Samurai (as rated above) than Pike.

Ian

I doubt it, in effect they are probably roughly as effective as the selected levy of the Later Medieval Danish (the Japanese shoot slightly better, but count as MF once in melee). While good troops I don't remember the selected levy being Pike killers. Also disruption is only bad for pikes (compared to other troops) in as far as swords, lances, etc. now count vs. them, which is irrelevant in the case of HW opponents.

[hazelbark]

I think this army is probably niftier in its speed and width and if the BGs can be 4s it can rival the dominate swarm of 18 BGs.

Now why would we allow them to be in 4s?

Why would you allow dominates in 4s?

[SirGarnet]

Why would you allow dominates in 4s?

!. Because 4 is a good fit for the size of late Imperial legiones and auxilia palatina?

2. Because the horrors of the Demonate Swarm could not be foreseen by mortal man?

[nikgaukroger]

2. Because the horrors of the Demonate Swarm could not be foreseen by mortal man?

That'd be the horror I faced twice at the Challenge: 22-3 and 14-6 to me

(Although it is true that it wasn't foreseen )

[hazelbark]

2. Because the horrors of the Demonate Swarm could not be foreseen by mortal man?

Obivously I has just razzing him for this. PS a mild correction would be require all dominate BGs to have supporting LF. That would knock off 1-2 BGs for little impact otherwise.

[ethan]

Let's assume an 8 base pike unit is coming at these guys with 4 samurai types firing at them (yes either side could engineer better or worse scenarios, but this is the baselien).

The Samurai will get 3 shots (they move into effective range and shoot, the pikes move up get shot at, the Samurai shoot in their turn, the pikes charge).

Each shot is 2 dice needing 4s to hit, so every round of shooting has a 1 in 4 chance of causing a test.

Let's assume the pike havea +1 general in range for the morale test, so will be on a 6 or better, so 26 in 36.

So every round of shooting has a 1/4*10/36 chance of disrupting the pike, about 7%.

So 93% chance each shot the pike remain in good order, 3 shots so .93^3 = 85% chance the pike charge in good order.

Seems pretty good odds for the pike.

[david53]

2. Because the horrors of the Demonate Swarm could not be foreseen by mortal man?

That'd be the horror I faced twice at the Challenge: 22-3 and 14-6 to me

(Although it is true that it wasn't foreseen )

But you were using a nicley painted Longbow army (+1 for good painting)

So you had a very good chance of shooting down the BG of fours even before those nasty men with halberds did there work at close quarters.

[nikgaukroger]

2. Because the horrors of the Demonate Swarm could not be foreseen by mortal man?

That'd be the horror I faced twice at the Challenge: 22-3 and 14-6 to me

(Although it is true that it wasn't foreseen )

But you were using a nicley painted Longbow army (+1 for good painting)

Kind of you to say, however, the best I would claim for my painting is that I've learnt my limitations and manage to get an acceptable look when combined with the bases.

So you had a very good chance of shooting down the BG of fours even before those nasty men with halberds did there work at close quarters.

My shooting was fairly ineffective, however, made up for by the longbowmen deciding that being a PoA down in combat didn't stop them winning

[Stewe]

Let's assume an 8 base pike unit is coming at these guys with 4 samurai types firing at them (yes either side could engineer better or worse scenarios, but this is the baselien).

The Samurai will get 3 shots (they move into effective range and shoot, the pikes move up get shot at, the Samurai shoot in their turn, the pikes charge).

Each shot is 2 dice needing 4s to hit, so every round of shooting has a 1 in 4 chance of causing a test.

Let's assume the pike havea +1 general in range for the morale test, so will be on a 6 or better, so 26 in 36.

So every round of shooting has a 1/4*10/36 chance of disrupting the pike, about 7%.

So 93% chance each shot the pike remain in good order, 3 shots so .93^3 = 85% chance the pike charge in good order.

Seems pretty good odds for the pike.

Well If you put it like that yes...

[DaiSho]

Let's assume an 8 base pike unit is coming at these guys with 4 samurai types firing at them (yes either side could engineer better or worse scenarios, but this is the baselien).

The Samurai will get 3 shots (they move into effective range and shoot, the pikes move up get shot at, the Samurai shoot in their turn, the pikes charge).

Each shot is 2 dice needing 4s to hit, so every round of shooting has a 1 in 4 chance of causing a test.

Let's assume the pike havea +1 general in range for the morale test, so will be on a 6 or better, so 26 in 36.

So every round of shooting has a 1/4*10/36 chance of disrupting the pike, about 7%.

So 93% chance each shot the pike remain in good order, 3 shots so .93^3 = 85% chance the pike charge in good order.

Seems pretty good odds for the pike.

I think that's an overly simplistic way of looking at it. Sure, it's a statistical way of looking at it, but in my experience stats have pretty much nothing to do with it.

Firstly, there are more shots than you've allocated.

1 - the Samurai move to 6" (first round of shooting)
2 - the Pike move to 3" (second round of shooting)
3 - the Samurai stay still (third round of shooting)
4 - the pike charge

- or -

1 - the Samurai stop at 8" (no shooting)
2 - the pike move to 5" (first round of shooting)
3 - the Samurai stay still (second round of shooting)
4 - the Pike move to 2" (third round of shooting)
5 - the Samurai stay still (fourth round of shooting)
6 - the Pike charge.

My point is that the decision to move into range is with the Samurai. The pike may feel compelled to move into range BECAUSE if they don't the Samurai are going to win elsewhere. It isn't as simple as 'move up and shoot'.

Secondly, this is an average over an incredible number of dice.

Thirdly, you didn't take into account the loss of an element (which indeed is only 1:6 for every 3 hits, but is still something that CAN happen and hurts the pike badly).

Fourthly, even if they DO manage to withstand the shooting they are STILL not exactly 'sitting pretty'. I'll happily put my Huscarls up against Pike (sure, they are Superior instead of Average, but there is a lot more Samurai than there are Huscarls).

In the end, I think the proof will be in the pudding.

Ian