Axis: Sealion and Egypt strategies

[jjdenver]

Hi,

Can someone point me to an existing thread w/ German strategic thoughts for Sealion and the Med (Egypt, etc)?

If there isn't one can someone offers some thoughts/tips about how to execute and set up for Sealion, and same for Egypt?

I'm talking about vs a human opponent in PBEM of course. Vs AI everything is trivial to accomplish.

Thanks

[Diplomaticus]

See "Any Point to Sealion?" earlier on this forum: viewtopic.php?t=7560

[jjdenver]

See "Any Point to Sealion?" earlier on this forum: viewtopic.php?t=7560

Ah -tyvm for the link but that seemed to devolve into a historical argument about when Russia would enter the war. It didn't include many thoughts on how to perform Sealion nor on Med strategy.

Anyone willing to shed some light/thoughts on those subjects? ty!

[rkr1958]

viewtopic.php?p=83244#83244

viewtopic.php?p=84640#84640

It's a start. Hopefully you'll see more discussion on it.

[jjdenver]

viewtopic.php?p=83244#83244

viewtopic.php?p=84640#84640

It's a start. Hopefully you'll see more discussion on it.

Oh my that's very helpful. Thanks!

[supermax]

Hello JJ denver

The Sealion strategy and the Egypt strategy are quite simple if you look at them closely.

SEALION

First you have to plan your production and have a minimum of 2 bombers(3 is best) and 2 fighters for the invasion. Thens lots of Infantry, and make sure you keep your subs and BB at full force, by not engaging them early in the game, but only when Sealion starts. Also having a HQ will help your effectiveness.

The basis of the best strategy that never failed for me is speed. Until mid 1942, everything is based on speed for the Axis. You have to be ready to get into the polish, french and english campaigns without real regards for what you will loose in manpower and units, since killing France and England very early will make your production jump to very high levels before Russia.

The order of campagning is as follow: Poland (2 turns max) , FRANCE (ASAP, move your troops without regard for pp's by rail), then Sealion before summer 1940 ideally.

FRANCE
1st turn you attack Poland with your full force and encircle as many troops as you can. Then you wait for the french reaction. If they launch an offensive (most players do), railroad as many troops as needed (minimum of 1 motorized, 4 -5 infantry and 2 tanks) to be poised for a serious counter-attack on the third turn. You will loose a lot of PP by overloading the railsystem, but believe me it will be worth it. This will enable you to catch the french off-guard with infantry in forward position they can ill-defend. Some players even get obstinate, and then you can kill off France in probably 3-4 turns. If your opponent doesnt do any offensive action with France, finish off Poland in MAx 3 turns, then move your planes to Denmark and railroad all troops to the belgian-german frontier as fast as you can, to prevent the french player to make a solid defensive line. You should attack no later that january. I would dwelves on how to kill the french its quite easy for any player to do, but SPEED is of the essence, and do not be afraid of loosing troops. Too many players have lost time in which i was able to fortify my position as the English player.

ENGLAND
Once you've got france out fo the picture, concentrate immediatly on repairing your forces for the upcoming assault. Also, depending on what the english player will do, position your BB at the entrance of the Skagerrac for it to be in a position to move to the english coast when you are ready to land (it will give you a supply line). Also move up as many italian units as you can, and especially the fighter, that will come very handy in the air battle. Also move your subs in the Holland area so they will be able to move in a blocking position to prevent the english navy to intervene the first 2-turns. Finally, move as many troops as you can in Brest, Hague and the german port city you have, to be ready to be sent on the english coast.

Most players tend to think like historically, that is that you have to deplete the Royal Air force to succeed. no such thing as we are not in reality but in a game that , like all games, has flaws... You can take 2 turns MAx to pound on the english navy with your planes(but not that important), that would be handy for the upcoming fight, but dont make this a must happen before you invade. Again, speed is of the essence.

Turn 1 of Sealion:
So when you are ready, that is in the summer of 1940 or fall of 1940 normally, the goal is to overwhelm. You simply have too many troops and planes and revenue for the English player to cope. First offensive turn is that you move all of your ships on the coastline, putting your strongest troops on the hex to be landing just right of London. Move a sub just beside it so the english player wont be able to attack it. Also move the other sub just beside it or in the straight if the english fleet is near normandy or Brest, it will enable you to block the english fleet for 1 or 2 turns. Air battle: You bombard London with all your planes to diminish the entrenchement. Or, if the english player was so foolish as to leave most BB's in the london area, attack the ships with all your planes, subs and BB. This will deplete the british fleet to such an extent that it wont be a threat to you for the rest of Sealion. Also prepare more troops around ports for a follow-up landing.

Turn 2 of Sealion:
Land as many troops as you can, regardless of if they are going to be out-of-supply. The most important place you need to be is on the hex just right of London. South of London hexes are also very important. Also, very important, you need to move more naval troops in the same area, for a follow-up landing the next turn. So all your planes bombard london again, then you land your troops which should attack London. By then, the entrenchement will almost be gone, and the english player will have to contend with many troops on the ground. Position your BB to supply as many units as you can by the way.

Turn 3 and onward:

Concentrate on London, London, London... Once you have the city, and believe me it will fall, youve got england, the british loose lots of PP and their rail capability. Also make sure you keep landing troops (italians, Romanians, hungarians if you have to), this will overwhelm any sturdy british defenses.

The rest you will figure out by yourself. The basis of this strategy is to combine your production, strategy and tactical moves in a speedy way to overwhelm england with your superior ressources, and more numerous army. If you are lucky and the English player bought reserach and did not bring his MEd fleet around and or produced ships, man you will have a field day. The only way to block this quick strategy is to bring the whole MEd fleet in England, produce only troops in the beginning, and accept the fact that the Axis will take Suez easily.

Stay tuned for Suez strategy next time

[MrPlow]

Great tips, but remember many of these ideas that work in the stock game break a few of the BJR houserules.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Great tips, but remember many of these ideas that work in the stock game break a few of the BJR houserules.

This is definitely true. It's too simple for the Axis to easily kill the British in the vanilla game. In the BJR-mod you have to outsmart and surprise your Allied opponent to succeed.

Sealion is still possible in the BJR-mod, but it will take more time and will certainly cost your entire navy. Even after taking Britain you still have to defend it and counter Allied attacks from Northern Ireland, Hebrides and later Scotland (when the Allies land here). So it will be hard to get enough power to be effective against the Russians in June 1941.

There are many mistakes the Allied player can do that will make Sealion easier. One mistake is to forget to plug the English Channel. The hex 2x south of the London port should be occupied by a British sub as soon as possible. It can only be attacked by one naval unit from the east. Since the sub is invisible and can't be bombarded while invisible (since it's not a port) it means it can only be detected by a naval unit. This naval unit will lose a lot of steps from the surprise attack (like 2-4 steps) and only inflict a few on the sub. Since it then occupies the only hex possible to attack the sub it means the Axis can't easily dispose the sub. You need tac bombers to do it.

Placing a sub here means the Axis can't send surface naval units e. g. to Cherbourg or Brest as a preparation for Sealion. It means the
units landing near Southampton will be unsupported and out of supply after they land.

The Axis can close the English Channel from the west with 3 subs or the English Channel from the east with 1 sub. Therefore you need to move your naval units to the Channel in time before the Axis can do it.

Another mistake the Allied player can do is to use the surface naval units as subhunters in 1939 and 1940 all the way to the fall of France. If the Axis player knows a big group of British ships have attacked a sub near Canada he also knows these ships won't protect against Sealion. This means it's absolutely imperative for the Allied player to keep his navy in English ports (to have better protection against bombers and subs) BEFORE the fall of France. It's better to let the convoys be unprotected for some months than risking Sealion.

I think it's a good idea to split the navy so maybe half of the navy can deal with the threat from the Channel and the other half can deal with the threat from the North Sea. Since eastern English Channel can be closed both by the Axis and the Allied player it means you have
to place your naval units in the area BEFORE France surrenders. Make sure you place your naval units within movement distance of
the choke point, but outside attack range of the German bombers.

This is pretty hard to do in the English Channel since you only have 1 port (Portsmouth) and all Axis air units can reach the Allied naval units. So you better be prepared for some naval losses here. It might be a good idea to place the naval units a bit to the west in the Channel so the Axis air units must be based between Brest and Cherbourg in order to reach the naval units. By doing so you make sure the air units can't reach invasion targets along the North Sea.

What you want to avoid at all cost is to be cut off from intercepting the Axis transports. So you better stay inside the Channel. It takes time to kill subs blocking the access and that's all the Axis player needs to secure Southampton and level 3 supply. If you lose Southampton then you will eventually lose London and all of England as well. You can only expect to destroy the invasion before the invaders get supply.

The British player must rail his garrisons to the areas near Southampton and London. If you can occupy all coastal hexes adjacent to the cities then the Axis units must land at least 2 hexes from the city and spend some time before they can even attack the city. That maybe buys enough time for the naval units to kill all Axis surface naval units so supply is lost before you lose a city.

I think Britain needs to have a reserve of land units outside Axis air range. The point is that garrisons alone can't destroy the German units that get ashore. If you place these reserves at the coast line you will only see the Axis player bombarding them to lower the efficiency so much so they can't be used for counter attacks. So it's better to keep them safe in the middle of Britain (outside spotting range as well) and rail them to the coast when you see signs of Sealion (like a German BB hitting your hidden sub in the choke point).

I don't like spending a lot of PP's on British land units early in 1940 only to see no Sealion at all. Then you can't afford the new DD's, labs and air units. So I think it's a good idea for the British player to SAVE his PP's for quite some time and see how it goes. If Sealion is about to happen then he quickly builds 3-4 corps units from his saved PP's. Then will arrive just in time to be used as a strategic reserve.

If you don't see Sealion is about to happen soon after the fall of France then you must not believe the danger is over and then spend the PP's on DD, labs, air units etc. The Germans can still surprise you and e. g. go after Norway first and then wait for new naval and air units before launching Sealion. It's actually not until november (when winter prevents amphibious landings) or you see the Axis airforce used against Yugoslavia or Greece you can be almost certain Sealion won't happen. Only THEN can you safely make the builds I described above.

Britain has some early critical choices. I'm thinking about WHERE to send the Canadian fighter, motorized corps and infantry corps. Egypt is desperately asking to get these units in order to fend off early attacks from the Axis in Libya, especially the DAK armor corps. In 1939 it will be easier to transport these units to Egypt because the German subs are too far away to intercept the transports. So it's tempting to send them to Egypt asap.

These units are also crucial to stopping the Sealion. With these units intact in England it will be much harder for the Axis to succeed with Sealion. But what do you do if the Axis player ignores Sealion and blitzes into Greece in the summer of 1940 and then attacks Egypt with full power (using Crete as an airbase to support the attacks). Then you don't have time to reinforce Egypt with these units.

This means the British player must take a risk in 1939 about where to send the reinforcements. One way could be to send the air unit to Britain and the land units to Egypt because you can always quickly build extra land units in Britain from saved PP's. The fighter can't be built so fast so it must be there before Sealion to affect the outcome of the invasion.

It's quite expensive to land the units in Britain and embark them again for Egypt if Sealion didn't happen (8 PP's per transport) so it's also possible to send the transports from Canada to Britain and place them in different ports in Britain without disembarking them. Then they can remain on the transport until you know if Sealion will happen or not. If not then you send them to Egypt without paying the embarkation cost again.

So it's definitely not easy for the British in 1939-1940. You will be alone for most of 1940 and half of 1941 and that means that you lose either Britain or Egypt if you make a mistake regarding your reinforcements. You have to avoid heavy losses at all cost because if you do so then you will be inviting the Germans to take one of both of these targets. Therefore it might be a bad idea to reinforce France too much. If your fighter gets mauled by the Luftwaffe it might be better to rebase it to Scotland and repair it for a possible Sealion. You simply have to have a big PP reserve by the time France surrenders so you can respond to Axis aggression against Britain.

Be prepared to sacrifice most of your navy to save Britain. Remember that the Axis navy and subs will also be destroyed in the process so you don't really need a large navy to protect against subs. Your convoys will all hit home until the Germans can rebuild a new sub force. You can build a new navy with these PP's. Also remember that if you lose Britain then the convoys will go to Halifax instead of Glasgow. It will be much easier to protect these convoys and you can build more units for a future liberation of Britain.

The biggest problem with losing Britain is NOT the PP loss. Most of the PP's come from convoys, Canadian production etc. London is often bombarded by the Germans to 0 production anyway. The Germans gain PP's from Britain, but they spend so many PP's on garrisoning Britain that it takes many turns until the conquest of Britain becomes a profit. No the biggest problem with losing Britain is that you lose all the airbases. That means you can't bombard the German industry at all. That is really devastating for the Allies because the Germans can then focus even harder on Russia. This means the first Allied invasion after USA joins the Allies should be Scotland and not Algeria. The Americans can send bombers and fighters to Iceland, northern Ireland and Hebrides to support the landing.

The British should also strike directly against Tobruk with all they got if the Germans land in Britain. The reason is that the Axis won't have airpower to stop you in the Med if they want to win in England. This is the window of opportunity you need to neutralize them there. The only dangerous unit is the DAK and it can only attack one unit per turn. Focus on killing it asap and then the Italians will fall like flies.

Launching a Sealion is definitely fun for the Axis player, but I think it's very risky with the BJR-mod. I think it will eventually produce worse results against an experienced Allied player than ignoring Sealion and going for a strong Barbarossa instead. Against a less experienced player I think Sealion is very good, mostly for psychological reasons. It's a big blow to the Allies to lose London and you need to have strong nerves to fight effectively for turn after turn after such a shock. You need to think far ahead as the Alllied player knowing that the "reward" from being heroic in Sealion will come in Russia 12-18 months later. I believe the Germans will win or lose the war in Russia. All they do to make Barbarossa less effective will just make it easier for the Allies to win.

[rkr1958]

I have the unique honor to be the only person to have a successful Sea Lion executed against them playing the BJR mod. Not once but twice!

viewtopic.php?p=68699#68699
viewtopic.php?p=84640#84640

The former game has long end, and I fortunately pull it out somehow, and was played with an older version of our house rules. In the current version now DOW against Russia is required 3-turns after the fall of a city in England and we now have amphibious limits. This last one is for a game currently underway and being played with the final version of the BJR mod houserules.

Two vital errors I made in this current game, and which Stauffenberg addresses above that I would like to highlight are:

(1) The signs for a Sea Lion were there but I chose to ignore them feeling that I had adequate forces to prevent such a "Silly" operation under the mod. Joe moved the German fleet to Atlantic ports and he based an armor unit in Cherbourg after the fall of France. Most are probably familiar with the embark-disembark tactic for a one turn landing of an infantry unit into a hostile hex next to a friendly port. What I did know, and what Joe taught me, was that this tactic can be used to land a unit in a hostile hex TWO hexes away from the port. To do this then turn before the invasion you embark a unit that occupies the port (i.e., Cherbourg). Don't move that unit! Then next turn when you embark a unit, since Cherbourg is occupied, it places itself in the channel next to the English coast and ready to invade. I didn't see that one coming but it's so obvious now. I should have had infantry units there on the coast once I saw the Cherbourg occupied. (2) but the most critical error I made was using the Allied sub to control the choke point two hexes south of London. As the Allied player I routinely sent the French navy out to sub hunt instead of patrolling the English Channel. Stauffenberg on the other hand has used them to shell Axis units on the coast. This is only a secondary; but only what you see as the Axis. Their main use to control the English channel. Since losses with them don't matter they can be used to keep the German surface ships at bay, sweep for German u-boats that may be used to control channel choke points and shell Axis unit on the coast. Using the French fleet to control the channel will ensure that the UK u-boat can take up position two hexes south of London without worry of harassment. As Stauffenberg also point out you need to make sure you get the Royal Navy in place prior to the fall of France.

[raffo80]

I think that the war is decided in russia, either in vanilla or BJR mod.

Sealion means oil and PP wasted. It means that germany will be weaker in russia (so more chances russia survive or takes iniitiative earlier). As said, germany has to keep garrisons in england. So, unless it's really a walkover, i think that a successful sealion actually helps allies.

[supermax]

I do not agree, since it totally deplete the bristish offensive capality, thus rendering impossible any major landings or offensive in 1941 or 1942, and then in some games even 1943, since most players go to re-take England back in that year. So it makes it possible for the german player to concentrates its ressources towards Russia for most of 41-42 and 43.

I fail to see how this is disanvatageous to Russia. Yes, it means less knowout punch capability for the German in the initial Barbarossa scenario, but who ever surrendered russia in 1941 against a reasonnably potent opponent?

Also, the german revenue is boosted significantly while the Allies one goes down.

[joerock22]

I do not agree, since it totally deplete the bristish offensive capality, thus rendering impossible any major landings or offensive in 1941 or 1942, and then in some games even 1943, since most players go to re-take England back in that year. So it makes it possible for the german player to concentrates its ressources towards Russia for most of 41-42 and 43.

I fail to see how this is disanvatageous to Russia. Yes, it means less knowout punch capability for the German in the initial Barbarossa scenario, but who ever surrendered russia in 1941 against a reasonnably potent opponent?

Also, the german revenue is boosted significantly while the Allies one goes down.

Well said. I second all of that Sealion can be especially deadly if the British lose their navy. The Germans can build a medium-large sized sub fleet and completely cut off merchant shipping to Canada until the Americans enter the war. It's hard for the British to do much of anything when they're getting only about 10 PP a turn, if that. The Middle East can be a cakewalk of the Brits don't have any resources to repair units.

[rkr1958]

I do not agree, since it totally deplete the bristish offensive capality, thus rendering impossible any major landings or offensive in 1941 or 1942, and then in some games even 1943, since most players go to re-take England back in that year. So it makes it possible for the german player to concentrates its ressources towards Russia for most of 41-42 and 43.

I fail to see how this is disanvatageous to Russia. Yes, it means less knowout punch capability for the German in the initial Barbarossa scenario, but who ever surrendered russia in 1941 against a reasonnably potent opponent?

Also, the german revenue is boosted significantly while the Allies one goes down.

Well said. I second all of that Sealion can be especially deadly if the British lose their navy. The Germans can build a medium-large sized sub fleet and completely cut off merchant shipping to Canada until the Americans enter the war. It's hard for the British to do much of anything when they're getting only about 10 PP a turn, if that. The Middle East can be a cakewalk of the Brits don't have any resources to repair units.

It looks like Joe is going to take mercy on me and allow us to restart our game. Even in this game, which things looked very dire for the Allied player, I had safely evacuated the Royal Navy and Royal airforce (two fighters & 1 strategic bomber) to Canada. I had lost no air units and my naval losses consisted of a UK CV (in the med) and sub (in the English Channel). However; many of this units were depleted and I wasn't getting a lot of PPs per turn for repairs. I also had evacuated the fighter, tank corps and one infantry corps from Egypt as Joe had mauled me there too. At Gibraltar I had a CV and 3 BBs.

We really do owe Joe a big thanks for adding another dimension and element of historical realism to playing our mod. Before, I used a passive defense against Sea Lion with ships sitting in port, air based out of harms way and 100 PPs in reserve. Well Joe showed me in no uncertain terms that this was a flawed strategy. Now, the Allied player must actively patrol the North Sea and protect the English Channel. Also, they must build up a reserve of infantry corps to be used in the event the Germans invade. What I'm struggling with in our game, and will with my upcoming game with Joe, is how much do I keep the RAF and RN in harms way to protect against Sea Lion. It looks like you adopted a strategy against Randy where you pulled these back but I'm afraid if I do that then may not be able to get back into the channel to counter an invasion if your opponent launches one there.

Our group has proposed some minor tweaks to the BJRmod to hopefully balance things out a little better. We're proposing adding a house rule that all European major powers must have a leader in any one of their capitals one turn after activation. To offset the cost of this we've changed the starting PPs for [Germany Italy UK France USA Russia] to [70 40 70 40 0 40]. We've also proposed adding two additional garrisons to England. Mostly significantly, I believe, is that we're proposing moving Cherbourg port, which is now directly north of the city Cherbourg, to the hex southwest of the city. This prevents the embarkation skip over tactic that places a unit (usually an armor unit) next to the English coast on the turn of enbarkation. Basically, if Cherbourg is occupied (e.g,German DD or BB) when you embark a unit (e.g., tank corps) in Cherbourg then because the port is occupied the unit is put in the English Channel next to the English coast. Thus, a tank corps starting its turn in the city of Cherbourg can be used invade England that very same turn. Hats off to Joe (again) that's one of those tactics that is obvious now that we've had completely not seen before.

I've gone back and forth whether or not the UK and French leaders will delay the fall of France and cost the Germans "significantly" more loses. However, for the Brits to take advantage of their leader in the Battle of France means that they would have to commit their air, and therefore suffer losses. These losses would then be replaced when their manpower levels are < 75%, thus suffering -1 quality hit.

One thing I do know for certain is that I will use the French navy in a different role. Before I had them off escorting convoys and hoping to run into u-boats. Now I will use them to patrol the English Channel and North Sea looking for u-boats; but most importantly looking for and trying to interdict the Germany navy. Also, I will ensure (as best I can) that the UK sub is in the hex two hexes south of London, controlling the eastern choke point to the Channel, just prior to the Fall of France. And for the truly worried Allied player who wishes to sleep better at night they could always build a second sub that could be used to "secretly" patrol (or control one of) the western channel choke points. But this was come at the cost of 60 PP's, thus delaying the purchase of research labs and / or other units (e.g., infantry). If Sea Lion doesn't happen then this second sub becomes much less useful than if the 60 PP's had been used elsewhere.

Joe and I have agreed to restart out game trying out these proposed tweaks to the mod. We have also agreed that Joe will give Sea Lion his best shot but if he feels that I've adequately defended against it then he's free to try whatever strategies he feels is best. For example, if I've put most everything into defending against Sea Lion then I've obviously left the Middle East and my convoy routs vulnerable to the Axis. It would then be a strategic mistake for the Germans to attack into my strength and ignore these easy pickens. Therefore; part of the Sea Lion strategy for the Allied player (and me) is balancing the defense against Sea Lion against the defensive needs in other areas. I going to quote Jim (Happycat), who was quoting someone else I'm sure, "He who defends everything defends nothing." This is so true in CEaW, which Staeffenberg has compared to chess. However, it's like chess with the fog of war on.