BrucErik CSD Studio

[bru888]

Hi,

On the issue with Triggers, are you wanting those triggers to all essentially fire at the same time? So the first one passes it's tests, fires, then fires the other ones?

No, each trigger should fire only as the Soviet guard ship reaches its destination hex. Which it wasn't doing until we changed the event from Any Event to Turn Start. I still hold faintly to the theory that unit transactions can be done only at certain times; witness those simple tests in which I could not get the Check Unit(s) Near Hex to work for spawn and self-destruct - no other effects - until terminator noticed that Turn Start was required. The tests are still available for downloading if you care to look at them.

[Shards]

God help me, but this is the first time that I looked at an outline map of Finland and actually saw Cool's "Maiden of Finland." Suomi is getting to me!


Suurin_Suomi.PNG


The maiden's skirt or gown is more voluminous than usual because the image caption is "The furthest advance of Finnish units in the Continuation War."

The Elovena brand is exactly this

https://www.raisio.com/documents/506963 ... 8281931000

[Shards]

Okay, so yes, from having a quick test with your map, and trying a few of my usual tricks to get around it, the implication is that there are certain Trigger Effects which will NOT take place outside of a Turn Start style event (I'd guess that Scenario Start is also valid).

My guess would be that issues were found with these when the game was being developed... We can investigate though and see whether these can be enabled for modders/developers going forwards?

[Shards]

If you just change the nationality of the boat USSR->Finland and move your boat to the target hex, the trigger works !

Terminator is correct.

If you have your triggers focus on a Player Controlled unit. They all work fine! Bleurgh, so why would Lukas have done this :/

et voila: https://imgur.com/a/XSOTdKv

I created clones of the triggers for Russia and Finland (slightly offset) and changed the Human Player to Russia. I arrived and sank perfectly well, but the Finns created no units.

[Shards]

@Bru, I'm going to use your example scenario and create a bug ticket in our tracker for this. I can't see any obvious reason why this should work for the player but not the AI

Ta

[bru888]

Thanks, Shards.

[bru888]

This island scenario is a bear. But then again, we both know that combined sea-land operations are quite problematic in this game. I will make it work eventually.

Mechanics aside, gameplay balance is another factor. You have Soviet marines, a tough unit, versus at best Finnish heavy infantry if the player is wise enough to choose them. Then this later wave of Special Boat Service units is useless. SBS '41 infantry attack (open terrain) = 7; Soviet Marine '41 infantry attack = 14. I could double the number of SBS spawns but the island may not be big enough for that many units in combat.

Then there is the cheat of parking MTBs in two of the channels, plugging them and preventing the transports ships from reaching their destinations without a fight. I just came up with that one while testing the apparatus which prevents the human player from occupying the southern coast with land units (explained in the briefing) and preventing marine debarkation in that manner.

I have to step back a bit and not allow this scenario to spiral out of control.

EDIT: Yeah, it's going to have to go on the chopping block. Simpler is better is my motto, and I have been violating that precept with this one. The human player will have three turns to sink a transport or two, then they will disappear and the marines corresponding to the surviving transports will "magically" appear on the beach. The transports will be transport ships, not fighting boats which throws off the balance, and they will be unnamed* so that the player doesn't complain "Hey, I was just engaging Group Bubnov out to sea, and their troops land here?" Heh, which renders moot the entire rigmarole that we went through with those triggers.** Maybe the game was trying to tell us something.

*EDIT 2: I came up with a list of Soviet munition and survey ship names that will add flavor but cut the link between them and the marine groups:

unit_62 = Kamenka
unit_63 = Amga
unit_64 = Sadko
unit_65 = Vinograd
unit_66 = Muna
unit_67 = Lama

So don't worry; it will look presentable.

**EDIT 3: Actually, those triggers do survive in that form for the third invasion wave of Group Brucinov and Group Erikovich which comes in from the north and east.

[bru888]

As anticipated, all you need to bring 8.3.0 up to speed is the english_16.txt file from 8.4.1. No file editing or splicing is needed, which is pleasant; as you can see, all missing unit, commander, and specialisation labels have been updated:

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I will continue designing with 8.3.0 for the time being.

[bru888]

A bit of the difficulty in dealing with these old template scenarios is that some of them are really, really limited in scope.

This "Dawn Patrol at Mount Ienikuvaara" is apparently based on the true life account of Serzhant Ivan Kobets. This account coincides with the original designer's scenario description; he indeed was leading a "Hunter" reconnaissance platoon near Ienikuvaara Mountain in the vicinity of Alakurtti. At one point, Sgt. Kobets says "Having gathered my men, whom there were 12, I made the mission plan clear to them."

12 men. That calls for 4 infantry units at the most, going literally by the unit images. Yet you have 8 on the map to begin with and even that number seems small, given the map size. The additional units indicate you were probably thinking the same thing: This scenario may have worked in JTCS but seems anemic in OOB.

So, I guess this is what you are paying me to do; come up with suitable spin to cover the situation and make it interesting. And I have done it! I hope.

[Erik2]

Good man.
Yes. I know there are a couple of original scenarios that doesn't quite fit the bill.
This is why I pay you the large salary

[CoolDTA]

A bit of the difficulty in dealing with these old template scenarios is that some of them are really, really limited in scope.

I'd add they are also void of reality.

Take for instance this "Dawn Patrol at Mount Ienikuvaara". There is no such thing. Vaara is a forested hill. Saying it is a mountain is like saying Mount Little Round Top. Ienikuvaara is gibberish. That link to the story shows a map in which you can see this location but it is Keinuvaara, not some ridiculous Mount Ienikuvaara (note: you must know Russian alphabet). Btw. it is Kairala, not Kajrala.

I don't even bother with the bs of superbly equipped Kampfgruppe 'Nord' (Pz Is and IIs) or Finnish troops losing their directions (these were local guys who knew the area better than anyone else) etc. Imho "the source" was lacking when dealing with Winter War but with Continuation War it is useless.

Notwithstanding, it was quite fun to offer my two cents with WW40. For CW41 I have no time because it would mean starting from the scratch. I know you are doing great work with what you have and are making the campaign a pleasure to play.

And Bru: don't waste your huge salary all at once.

[bru888]

Well, sir, you have just made a molehill out of this mountain!

Screenshot 1.jpg (552.82 KiB) Viewed 2528 times

However, I am going to leave it alone and I will tell you why.

You know from previous conversation that I don't hold much stock by those JTCS pundits that we are leaning on here. I have found some wildly inaccurate statements among their combat synopses. That is why I attempt to do at least a little research on the premise of each scenario.

It so happens that I found the participant account on which the scenario is based and it looks rather authentic to me. Maybe it's a translation issue, but Sergeant Kobets mentions "Ienikuvaara Mt." twice in his account. It's a distinctive promontory in an otherwise flat land; a hill that may have struck him as mountainous. That's good enough for me.

As far as the spelling, I certainly wouldn't argue with you but in the back of my mind is the fact that we are on Russian territory now, no? So maybe translations of place names may be a bit different this far east.

Regarding "Kairala, not Kajrala," I went with Kajrala because I think I saw it spelled that way someplace else. I edited a map with that name and I cannot go back to edit it again without doing the whole thing over. So it stays "Kajrala," sorry. Besides, even though we don't trust Google maps, they have a different spelling altogether:

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You know my standards. I try for accuracy as best as I can but after a while, it's a game and if something is plausible and reasonably accurate, a bit of designer license may be in store for the rest. This story of "Dawn Patrol at Mount Ienikuvaara" is actually rather good and, if I was successful, will be fun to play.

[CoolDTA]

Well, sir, you have just made a molehill out of this mountain!

As far as the spelling, I certainly wouldn't argue with you but in the back of my mind is the fact that we are on Russian territory now, no? So maybe translations of place names may be a bit different this far east.

Sigh. How many times I have to go through the same basic things over and over again...

Yes, now, but not when the battle takes place. The whole area is part of eastern Salla which was occupied and stolen in Winter War a year before. Of course the Finnish names are the only correct ones. The differences are because of how foreign names are transliterated into Russian. Regarding the account the fact that these supposed Russians can't even read their own alphabet is suspicious. There is no fictional Mount Ienikuvaara in the map of the account, but there is Keinuvaara transliterated in Russian.

Kairala is the correct name. It is again a transliteration thing with 'Kajrala'.

Well, now you know. I try not to bother you any more.

[Shards]

/sidle from the wings

Psst, CoolDTA, would you mind taking a look at the Karjelan Kesä MP map that arrived with the latest patch?

I'm married to a Finn who's family are from Eastern Karelia, so I am very much motivated to give places the right names there

[CoolDTA]

Krmh.., isn't that the same as the Karelian Isthmus map from Winter War? It just lacks the names. I quickly checked the Isthmus map and noticed only two typos: Vammelsou -> Vammelsuu and Ayräpää -> Äyräpää. Or did you have sthg else in mind?

Interesting premise btw. (in the scen).

I'm married to a Finn who's family are from Eastern Karelia, so I am very much motivated to give places the right names there

Heh, that sure is a good motivation.

@Bru: Because of your eloquent language skills I learned a new English word: rigmarole. Thank you!

[Shards]

It's not quite the same map, I did some shenanigans to balance MP gameplay. But if you haven't seen them, that's a seal of approval for me

[bru888]

Here's a nod to the hilly nature of 'Mount' Ienikuvaara:

Hilltop_View.jpg (755.6 KiB) Viewed 2461 times

[CoolDTA]

It's not quite the same map, I did some shenanigans to balance MP gameplay. But if you haven't seen them, that's a seal of approval for me

Ah, so it seems. I'm old - to see such small details is too much to ask.

@Bru: nice popup.

[bru888]

Zut alors! There is snow in that picture and it is August. Not even this far north, not in August. Alternative:

Hilltop_View 2.jpg (746.91 KiB) Viewed 2455 times

Unless somebody can suggest a better image. Requirements:

1) Bald hill sticking up by itself
2) Forest surroundings, preferably evergreen
3) No log cabins, tents, campers, etc.
4) Summertime; no snow and ice.

[CoolDTA]

Unless somebody can suggest a better image. Requirements:

This is not Keinuvaara, but it is a genuine Finnish vaara.

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