Proposed Rules Mod - Minimalist Heroes

[SirGarnet]

Minimalist Heroes Base Reroll MOD Revised March 2009 (same as posted on Yahoo Group)

Army Lists may allow 1 or 2 heroes, one of which may be with an ally BG, and specify which BG or BG types the hero may or must accompany. A hero is assigned in the player's campaign list and order of march to a specific BG base and is destroyed when that base is destroyed.

The only effect of the hero is to increase the base's quality only for combat rerolls by one grade (in the same way a commander in the front rank can also do). A base can be affected by both a commander and hero. All heroes must be named by the army list or campaign list - they are, after all, famous heroes.

A BG can include more than one base with a hero only if both heroes are an inseparable duo in the applicable fantasy realm (such as Legolas and Gimli in the War of the Ring), in which case they MUST be in the same BG.

If a points system is used, the cost of a hero is the cost of the effective upgrade (e.g., the cost of upgrading a base of armoured HF from average to superior is 3 points, so the cost of a hero attached to that average base is 3 points). If there is no such points cost under p149 then the hero cannot serve with that BG unless the army list allows and states the exact points cost.


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Minimalist Heroes Rule Mod (Base Reroll)
BACKGROUND, RATIONALE AND ANALYSIS:

Many heroes are best represented as commanders. This mod allows use of a couple of heroes represented by increasing the combat effectiveness of a base through prowess or inspiration. Rerolls are used as they are a popular game mechanism for most gamers that is already part of the Field of Glory system and their odds effect scales more proportionately than other modifiers. The effect is easily integrated in the game flow without delay. The overall impact is limited by the scarcity of heroes.

I rejected cohesion test modifiers as less representative of the effect of heroes and having too great and too inconsistent an impact on the game. There is no test for loss of heroes, the dismay caused for some assumed to cancel out the killing rage kindled in others.

The net advantage to friends caused by villains' discouragement of enemy is assumed to be similar and also covered by this mechanism.

I expect heroes to be thought of tactically as a partial replacement for, or supplement to, commanders in the front rank to stiffen a battle group. Heroes provide a slight edge against an equivalent enemy BG, but only partially offset any enemy battle group's POA or reroll advantage.

[stenic]

I'd go the other way and actually have the Hero as a 1 base BG. Pay for him as the troop type (must be drilled) of your choice to represent your favoured Hero - Druss, Conan, Legolas etc... But no CMT required, have 2 dice in combat (and shooting?) Gets a Heroic + POA in impact and melee. Can interpenetrate all friends. Possibly allow them double moves outside of 6MUs.

It would be necessary to approximate a cost for the extra combat dice and no CMT required to make them suitable expensive but I do agree that perhaps they should not cause CMTs for their loss, nor inspire a positive benefit on friendly CMTs. I'd be tempted to say just double the cost.

So, Conan - MF, protected, Hvy Weapon, Elite, Drilled(for ease of gameplay) ? Legolas - MF, Longbow, armoured, Lt Spear (skilled sword?) etc...

Being only 1 base they'll not take too many hits to lose combats especially being elite with 2 dice. Their problem will be when swamped or shot at (Boromir anyone?). They'll take CTs as normal be being elite likely to pass and will not lose dice until fragged. Hits per base may be an issue so i may be necessary to allow +1 for being heroic. Death rolls as normal so don't let them get isolated.

Just an idea?

[carlos]

Their versatility and small size plus the interpenetration might make them too good at catching BGs in the flank, so probably the auto cohesion drop for being charged in the flank should be waived if it's a hero. Otherwise cool.

[SirGarnet]

Seems like it would have a big effect on the game and a lot of mechanical questions. Is the hero treated like a BG for restricted area, preventing enemy second moves, engaging in combat etc., or like a commander in that it needs to attach to a BG to fight in the front rank (as a base), does not obstruct enemy and needs to move to a friendly BG if contacted?

Given that a base can be up to hundreds of men, I think it would have to represent a hero and his companions unless quite superhuman beyond the normal heroic.

[stenic]

I'm not sure that would be an issue. Figures on the base are representative anyway and to my mind Heroes do have various followers and hangers-on.

I'd view them as a proper BG, not like a commander at all. So all restrictions and rules etc apply, all that happens is they get bonus POAs etc... It keeps the game simple and is just effectively a super troop type - a bit like an MF Armoured Roman Legionary

The reason I'd go for them being a BG is people will want them to physicaly fight and be able to tell tales of how the Hero held up and defeated entire BGs of enemy troops. They should have a restricted zone that give the enemy cause to consider their move, they should be 'realistic' and have to move about the battlefield like others and they should be mortal.

Steve P

[willb]

Instead of having a hero as a single base battlegroup, treat this sort of hero as a sort of lesser commander. He would be able to move like a commander, have to join a battlegroup to affect it, must remain with that battlegroup once it is engaged in melee, and be subject to the same possibility of being killed as commanders fighting in the front rank of a melee. The hero would also be subject to the same effects as commanders if contacted by an enemy battlegroup while on their own. This sort of hero would also not be able to affect a cmt or cohesion test. As noted there would be a limit of one or two heroes. The point cost for this type of hero would be about 10 points.

[Eusebius]

Don't know how many of ya'll saw my FoG of Ice and Fire lists, but I went with the approach of heroes being a unigue figure/ stand that is part of the BG. But really, heroes are a modifier that give thier host BG unigue abilities and modifiers. They add cost to purchasing the BG, and can only be given to a specific troop type.

An example would be the Character Squire Dalbridge (as seen in the A Song of Ice and Fire series). He was a longbowman and an accomplished marksman. He could take down eagles from the sky with his bow. At one point of the story he is sent to a mountain pass because, "From there one man could hold a hundred. The right man."

Squire Dalbridge can only be purchased with a MF Longbow equipped BG. His special ability in FoG is that he gives his host BG an extra shooting dice. So, Whenever that BG is able to shoot, it gets one extra die - if it shoots at two different enemy BGs, it is only getting one between the two. Essentially, an 8 stand BG shoots like 9 stands. His cost is basically that of a stand in a longbow BG, so it is pretty fair, but the advantage is that Squire Dalbridge is considered in the front rank so his stand can move to where ever you want it like commander. If only 2 stands would normally be able to shoot because of range of arc of fire, you get to roll 3 dice instead of 2. Against an 8 stand block, that can mean a LOT. But its fair, the enemy gets heroes, too.

Other heroes are like an upgrade to a BG in the list. Some simply upgrade certain, specific troop types (HF, MF, Spearmen, ect...) from average to superior. Thier cost is the same as the upgrade from average to superior of that troop type, so pretty simple and could have been worked into the list by simply making an entry that you can purchase one unit of blah blah troop type as superior.

Other heroes change things a bit more radically - like giving the ability of a MF BG to use the LF movement table - that may seem a bit radical, but again, allthe factions get heroes, so it is still fair.

[willb]

I haven't had a chance to read through all the Ice and Fire lists yet. The suggestion for a mobile hero instead of one permanently attached to a battlegroup is more to fit in with the Lords of the Ring background or some other series. With the Hyborean lists heroes would normally be part of a unit and not move about the battlefield.

One thing I forgot to include in the other post is that a mobile hero would only affect the die roll of the single stand in the battlegroup that he is fighting with and not all the die rolls of the battlegroup.

[stenic]

If you treat a Hero like a leader then they are not Heroic but just motivating others to put in the extra effot (Re-rolls, CTs etc...).

If you make a Hero part of a BG thenthey are constrained to that BG and are not able to move around the battle field as needed. Also, how do you know if the Hero suffers the death roll or the others in the BG. and when the BG goes that's the Hero gone too. Or would you just treat the entire BG as the 'Hero'? Whilst in some fantasy literature Heroes attach to a unit an stay there it is not true for all fantasy Heroes.

A single base BG, you know it makes sense


Steve P

[zellak]

Whilst in some fantasy literature Heroes attach to a unit an stay there it is not true for all fantasy Heroes.

Steve P

True, some fantasy heroes can personally take on 200+ opponents at a time and win.... Elric for instance.

Whilst others like Conan,who are exceptional warriors, inspire others to fight harder.

The "Conan types" , imho, should inspire the whole battlegroup and not just one base.
(Remembering to change one of the dice in the combat rolls / rerolls is hardly worth the effort.)

So if the quality upgrade is 3 points per base on a 4 strong BG. It would be better to count the hero as 12 points and upgrading the entire BG.

[willb]

Whilst in some fantasy literature Heroes attach to a unit an stay there it is not true for all fantasy Heroes.

Steve P

True, some fantasy heroes can personally take on 200+ opponents at a time and win.... Elric for instance.

Whilst others like Conan,who are exceptional warriors, inspire others to fight harder.

The "Conan types" , imho, should inspire the whole battlegroup and not just one base.
(Remembering to change one of the dice in the combat rolls / rerolls is hardly worth the effort.)

So if the quality upgrade is 3 points per base on a 4 strong BG. It would be better to count the hero as 12 points and upgrading the entire BG.

That sound a lot like my original proposal for heroes on the yahoo group.

As for a single base battlegroup, unfortunately that violates one of the basic foundations of Field of Glory where all battlegroups must be in even numbers with only a few exceptions and the minimum battlegroup is two stands. Also, though a hero might have some followers, it is not likely that he would have a couple of hundred or so following him around all over the battlefield. Another thing to consider is how much an effect a single person would have, regardless of how heroic they are. Adding an extra die is the equivalent of 250 men in melee.

[stenic]

It's possibe the limit on even numbers in a BG (with exceptions of course) is more of a game mechanic to prevent the mathematical play people used to do in DBM to gain and extra advantage on break points and dice etc... It's not a hard and fast rule as we know and exceptional characters may well warrant exceptional circumstances.

I'll try and sort out a play test as really that's the only way.

Steve P