Winter War 1940 Beta Test

[ColonelY]

08Muolaa

[...]

Air recon message vs possible Blackburn again.
The Soviet air units never made a comeback after their first sortie.
So no chance to down 2 Soviet sir units as the Finnish fighters arrived late to the party.
This of course makes it difficult to get a major victory.

The knitted message states that the curch was not saved. This was not the case in my game, so I think you should replace that part with something more generic.

Description of my strategy:

Having seen the overall configuration (map, obj, defensive lines), I decided to defend mainly the second line and to only delay and harass the Soviets at the first line…
I’ve deployed 6 experienced ski troops together, at the west, near Topila… I’ve deployed all my armors (2 tanks and the famous BT-42 with the commander which increases the shock effect – very efficient!) + 2 ski troops (and several aux snipers units already deployed) as a second group near Rauhala… to the east, I had only 2 units of engineers putting more mines on these roads while moving northwards…

All my heavies, AT-guns, AA-guns (2 units covering the main artillery positions), all my “static” artillery, several ski troops positioned at key points on the second defensive line.
And several ski troops together with the partisan’s units… (The first paratroopers, after droping and so still yellow, were directly attacked by some of my ski troops!)

It would definitely be very difficult to strongly hold the first defensive line, due to the concentration of enemy artillery pieces mainly… But that’s part of the scenario, so it’s perfectly fine!

So, there was no general retreat, but smaller-scale tactical retreats…

It’s only around the half of the scenario that the enemy began to get closer to the second line… and received a warmly welcome!
***
Of course, I agree with Erik about the recon plane and the “knitted” message.
***
The enemy does lack artillery support when closing on the second line…

After the initial phase near the first line, only one Soviet artillery managed to take few shots – the one in the west, and only because I counter-attacked massively in these woods, thus moving southwards…

On the last turn I use “#orbitalcommand”: there was 3 Soviet artillery units still roughly at the height of Rauhala and 4 at mid-way between Rauhala and Muolaa (+the one in the west, in the woods)!

They should really have moved sooner towards the north, or have moved faster or something, overwise the Soviet assault will really lack their support…
***
Same consideration for the Soviet planes: I’ve seen them ONLY because I’ve sent my fighters (near the end of the scenario) straight over their AF… there I’ve seen 2 fighters and 2 bombers (even the bombers were moving back towards their AF once my fighters reached it )…

I think these Soviet planes should definitely move northwards, aggressively, to find their targets maybe around Muolaa or something…

My fighters have first scrambled, rushed southwards (above the center of the map) and – having encounter no plane at all – were directly forced to go back to refuel, having been pretty useless for this first trip…

Maybe our AF can be spawned just a little north of Muolaa?
***
Then some detailing:
• In the scenario description: Lahde or more likely Lähde?
• Second part of the briefing: “proctect his church” should be replaced of course by “protect his church”…
• The Vicarage should always be written with a capital letter… It’s not the case in the first part of the briefing, in the text of the “calming Colonel” and in the texts for Minor Defeat/Victory.

[bru888]

Thanks for all of this. Please keep going.

[Erik2]

09SummaHardestDay

Core units:
Ski x13, hvy inf x9, eng x4, T28 x1, 37mm AT x4, 105mm art x3, 122mm art x1, 40mm AA x5


The Finnish fighters only get halfway to the front before they have to refuel.

Lost Observer Post A to the Soviet 'naval' inf. There was no way the Finns could move up regular units in time. If the Soviet paras do not have it already, this would be a perfect place to have random AI 'move to' triggers.

As the Colonel mentioned in another scenario, the Soviet artillery tend to stay put.

The Soviet units partially broke through the first line, but Finnish counter-attacks pushed them back south. Reformed units were enough to partially destroy the paras. They left Observer Post A undefended, so a lone Finnish ski unit were able to recapture it. Maybe the para formation should be split in 2 teams and one of them ordered to defend the objective.

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[ColonelY]

09SummaHardestDay

The Finnish fighters only get halfway to the front before they have to refuel.

Lost Observer Post A to the Soviet 'naval' inf. There was no way the Finns could move up regular units in time. If the Soviet paras do not have it already, this would be a perfect place to have random AI 'move to' triggers.

As the Colonel mentioned in another scenario, the Soviet artillery tend to stay put.

The Soviet units partially broke through the first line, but Finnish counter-attacks pushed them back south. Reformed units were enough to partially destroy the paras. They left Observer Post A undefended, so a lone Finnish ski unit were able to recapture it. Maybe the para formation should be split in 2 teams and one of them ordered to defend the objective.

Indeed, even for the Morane-Saulnier fighters (which have the biggest fuel capacity), it's quite challenging just to reach the action-zone... Maybe move our AF southwards?

Same consideration than before for our recon plane!

Nice initial Soviet air formation, before the dropping.
I managed to save Observer Post A - directly by concentrating the Partisans surrounding this post and by rushing 3 experienced Ski troops units (able to move pretty fast along the road), including one from the north, which was able, on its way, to capture their supply output... And I've put a Partisan unit just in the hex north to the Observer Post itself - this unit has delay the Soviets! And once they try to "surround" this first unit of Partisans, then they've got in range of the bunker and the MG-foxhole...

I was a little surprised: these Marines/Paratroopers reached the ground at the beginning of the second turn, but it's only on the 4th turn that the objective to deal with this paratrooper mission actually appears/is updated... Shouldn't this obj update come sooner?

[ColonelY]

And, well of course you know this better than me, but if any AF within these scenarios (just after the crossroad, I mean) is moved somewhere else, then once the sec obj is achieved, the dogfighter as reward should be spawned near the new location, which shoud be highlighted instead of the old place... Don't forget to change this as well, otherwise it will appear as issue soon or later.

[ColonelY]

10Kirvesmaki:

-> One could add several (re)deploy hexes around our "Sector Base", couldn't we?

-> The text for the Major Victory should be modified, I mean the part where it's written "The concrete bunkers are intact"! Indeed, one can achieve a Major Victory with 2 remaining concrete bunkers out of the starting 3 and, moreover, those don't even need to stay "intact", so what about writting instead something like: "The bulk of our fortifications has held."
*************
11Honkaniemi:

-> Our recon plane would be welcome...

[Erik2]

10Kirvesmaki

Core units:
Ski x11, hvy inf x4, eng x3, 37mm AT x4, 105mm art x3, 122mm art x1, 40mm AA x5


The Carl Gustaf message implies we have met before. I can't remember meeting von Rosen in any earlier scenario.

The battle raged back and forth along the initial frontine for the duration of the scenario.
Only the southernmost bunker were in any danger of being captured. Mannerheim in his T28 intervened in a timely manner and saved the day.

No other "serious" issues other than the elusive sec obj 'kill Sov air units'.

The victory message mentions losing the bunkers. Better replace this with something more generic as my Finns never loste one.

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[ColonelY]

10Kirvesmaki

The Carl Gustaf message implies we have met before. I can't remember meeting von Rosen in any earlier scenario.

The victory message mentions losing the bunkers. Better replace this with something more generic as my Finns never loste one.

We've met von Rosen in Winter War 39!

Replace this by something more generic or something as: "The bulk of our fortifications has held." (Yeah, once again! See my previous post.) Even if we manage to keep intact our 3 Concrete Bunker, several MG foxholes and Bunkers will be lost anyway, so...

[ColonelY]

11Honkaniemi:

At first, I was a little worried about the length of this scenario, but it's fine, one can manage to take all objectives within the given number of turns.

-> As already written, our recon plane would be really welcome!

-> The Soviet supply train (not moving, by the way - but it's fine!) has been destroyed... But the objective has not been validated, although I've received the message concerning this destruction, although it was written on the objectives "1/1", I still had the "?" left. Thus, I've had only a Minor Victory due to this!

-> Almost all of my reserve RPs disappear during this scenario (the aux tanks being quite costly to repair! )... Therefore I propose to increase the income by maybe 6-8 RP/turn!
*******
By the way, I think it's a really useful system, this "Unauthorized" staff, as well as the kind of reward for the elimination of enemy heroes (in previous scenarios, of course)!

[Erik2]

11Honkaniemi

Core units:
Ski x11, hvy inf x4, eng x3, 37mm AT x4, 105mm art x3, 122mm art x1, 40mm AA x5

I think the captured T28 should be allowed alongside the aux Vickers tanks.
Maybe remove one of the Vickers if the T28 is deployed?

This time there were not enough sresources left to fully repair the core units.
This meant 26 CPs worth of units were deployed severly understrength in the rear at scenario start. Quite realistic, though.

I bungled this one. I barely managed to capture one of the two primary objectives. One initial mistake was creating two flanking forces to grab a couple of sec objs and thus weaking the Finnish centre.

The supply train was destroyedf, but not check-marked.

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[Erik2]

15Turku

Core units:
Blackburn x1, MS406 x2, Buffalo x3, P36 x5,


This was a welome diversion from the massive land-based battles.

The City garrison was ignored by all Soviet air units.
So the victory message about the garrison being decimated was far from the truth.

I lost one of the naval units.

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[ColonelY]

15Turku

This was a welome diversion from the massive land-based battles.

The City garrison was ignored by all Soviet air units.
So the victory message about the garrison being decimated was far from the truth.

I lost one of the naval units.

Nice diversion, indeed.

I confirm about the City garrison... maybe this unit hidden to the Soviet bombers, so that actually they don't target it because they don't see it? If it's the case, is it possible to assign them a given hex to bomb "whatever is on this one"?
There was 4 Soviet bombers just South to it, moving a little, not even bombing when moving above an AA-gun, not evacuating when heavily damaged, not targeting either the neighboring concrete bunkers...

On the turn 12, the sky were cleared from Soviets - but I've lost a ship too... Can't they be just a little stronger than already starting half-depletead?

I think it would be better to have/receive the help of about 4 or 5 aux fighters... otherwise we'll have tons of (core) fighters in reserve for the remaining scenarios - too much to really deploy/use them anyway, so...

[ColonelY]

12Lemetti:

-> A great scenario too, but really costly in terms of RP - the income should thus be increased a little bit.

-> There is a red arrow missing over Lemetti (pri. obj. descr.).

-> Our recon plane? (Even if maybe not from turn 1, due to the surprise effect of this Soviet assault... )

-> 5 units were surrounding the southern Soviet tank but nothing happened... I let the turn pass, just to see. Nothing happening still. Then I destroy it. Still nothing.
When surrounding the second tank from the South (an OT-130), THEN only this sec. obj. was considered as achieved and I received a BT-7 tank.
There is some issue related to this.

-> What about making our reward BT-7 tank as core unit? (It may be really welcome at least in the next big scenario. )

-> On the beginning of turn 10, the obj "Prevent Soviet from escaping the motti" was considered as failed, although NO unit at all managed to escape nor was close at all from any exit point - I've reloaded the scenario on Turn 9, checked the controlled zones, even used "#orbitalcommand" -> no unit able to escape anywhere! I've reloaded then the "End of Turn 9", and there it was already considered as failed...
So, I assume that the destruction of the remaining fuelless Soviet tanks by their engineers has triggered this? This should definitely be checked!

-> The map has been completely cleared at the 15th turn... but the sec obj counter said that there was 24/30 units destroyed - so I've checked again with "#orbitalcommand" and there was no one left at all, not a single MG foxhole nor bunker (are those counted here? If yes, it should be precised in the list you provide when describing this obj! )... This should definitely be checked as well!
I assume that the tanks were counted (despite what's written in the description) and being removed without having been destroyed by the player himself, they doesn't appear...

-> I've been too aggressive at the beginning and thus haven't been able to fully use the help of all the aux infantry available... Hem... Another time, I will be more watchful about this!

[bru888]

12Lemetti:

-> A great scenario too, but really costly in terms of RP - the income should thus be increased a little bit.

This is a key comment to me. Well, they all are, but this stands out in a quick scan of posts (as I said, when you guys hit the finish line - and it's cool that you are going hand-in-hand - I will return and pick all of this apart).

It justifies, in my mind at least, my approach of handing out resources as needed to finance core unit purchases, most of which occur in the beginning. That could occasion a pool of resources at first, especially if the first few scenarios are relatively easy, but if the player indulges in elite repairs, he may not have the resources later when he needs them.

Erik's approach seems to result in goodies being handed out later in the campaign and the interesting thing is, we seem to coincide in total in the end; it's just the timing where we differ. Both approaches work, I think, but he will be the final judge when he adjusts gameplay balance by editing the player's CPs and RPs in each scenario. He will see that it is not a matter of reverting back to what he had originally for these settings because I am tinkering with his AI units here and there.

Heh, the resource points spreadsheet that I use has grown! I had to expand it when I tried to use it for Continuation War 1941, which has three factions on the human side, and I realized that I was pooling the resource points incorrectly in this situation. It is a thing of beauty now (in the eyes of this beholder, of course - I used to do these things as a living, being in finance, and I missed it). In LibreOffice Calc (which I discovered after I retired because I had always been anchored to the organization's Microsoft Office where I worked)!

Whew, how's that for digression? Back to the northern forests, Bruce! At least it's not snow and ice in this war!

[ColonelY]

12Lemetti:

What about making at least one of our bombers available after a little while? It would be really useful to counter the powerful enemy artillery...

[ColonelY]

13TuppuraIsland:

Another very interessant scenario!


Here are a handful of points:

1. The "Air Superiority" should appear just before deploying troops... otherwise it may be somehow unnice!
Example: I had deployed only (the recon plane +) fighters, to clear the skies (and because we have tons of them)... And just after this, I've been informed that the complete air superiority is already here, for now at least. So fighters back, deploying bombers = losing (too) much time!

2. The ports are not frozen, so our defending units may go on ships it we're not careful enough! But I think it's purely an OoB mechanism...

3. When the Soviet air forces come, it's directly in force and without any warning... Indeed my bombers - already delayed - had just reached the enemy art once many fighters spawn near then... Another new event to warn the player that the climatical conditions have changed and that Soviet air units may soon join the battle?

4. I've decided NOT to defend Outpost C (to avoid the dispersion of my units and this should anyway be perfectly fine with the different objectives), and thus tried to retreat accordingly the aux infantry starting near this place... So far, so good!
Alas, even if this Outpost is lost, some random "Wounded" guys continue to spawn near or just on it (even recapturing it as a depleted 1-strenght unit )... but having thus absolutely no change at all to survive!!!
Would it be possible to check who's the owner of the nearby point before spawning these units?
Otherwise it's like if a guy wakes up, completely behind enemy lines, already wounded, but EASILY detectable by nearby enemy units plus moving (too) slowly, and shouting "Hey, commander, I'm here, please do something, save me!" When there is not a single friendly unit nearby nor allied flag flying over the nearby place(s)... Well, to the impossible no one is bound.

5. I've seen no tank nor artillery moving against the NW island (the Kuninkaansaari one, or something)... Is this on purpose?

6. And now a really little detail: There is no point (".") at the end of "and with the help of arctic conditions" within the scenario descr.

[bru888]

6. And now a really little detail: There is no point (".") at the end of "and with the help of arctic conditions" within the scenario descr.

I like this! Never hesitate to include "a really little detail" like this because, were I to see it later, I would be annoyed with myself!

[GabeKnight]

The Tank School spec is a bit curious since the Finns can't purchase any tanks until 1942...
I think we should remove this spec from the campaign. Players will be miffed if they spent their hard-earned spec points on it.

As the Finnish faction has no real spec tree anyway, I wouldn't remove it. BTW it is useful when reforming/reviving dead units, as those will start with 2000 exp. then.

[Erik2]

12Lemetti

Core units:
Ski x13, Hvy inf x9, Eng x4, T28 x1, 122mm Art x1

I had 3 Finnish units next to one Soviet tank by turn 8, and 4 units by turn 8.
Also 3 other units next to a different tank by turn 9.
Still no reward.

Also, maybe the scenario should run to the end giving the player a chance to Finnish mopping up enemies.

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[ColonelY]

13TuppuraIsland: Second trial...

This time I've started with several bombers airborne and decided to try to defend as well the Outpost C... and guess what: this time there was not even a single wounded guy spawning near this controlled Outpost! Looks like it was a complot!

The other time, when I decide not to defend this outpost, three guys spawn around it in a row to die almost immediately... Once well protected - the Soviets managed to destroy the bunker at Outpost C (the single bunker that has been destroyed!), but they've kept this place for only a single turn! - so, once well protected, no one spawn there! So it should for sure be random and, well, I've been unlucky the first time... Within this one, all 12 wounded guys have been sent to safety!

Near the end, I've sent 2 ski troops from the top north moving eastwards and 3 ski troops from the extreme east moving northwards... And one huge motti, one! All the Soviet supply outputs have been taken, as well as their airfield... at the end of the scenario, they had only left one T26 with 2 strenght left (and red) and one Soviet infantry with 1 strength left (and red) plus their two bombers...

I confirm: it was very interessant, this scenario!

A last suggestion: what about adding some (re)deploy hexes? Otherwise, if an unit is destroyed or removed on purpose, then as it is now it can't be replaced at all...