Late Medieval German - 800 points

[The_Bishop]

G’day Guys,

I’m fairly new to the forum, FoG, and Ancients Wargaming in general; however I’ve been playing Flames of War for a few years and dabbled in a couple of other things before that. Some guys at the local club have gotten into FoG a lot and having looked at a few different armies I really like he look of the Late Med Germans for a few reasons, anyway, here’s the list:

Commanders: IC, 3xTC

01 - Pikemen – 8 – HF – Prot – Avg – Dr – Pk
02 - Pikemen – 8 – HF – Prot – Avg – Dr – Pk
03 - Halberdiers – 4 – HF – Arm – Avg – Dr – HW
04 - Pikemen – 8 – HF – Prot – Avg – Dr – Pk
05 - Pikemen – 8 – HF – Prot – Avg – Dr – Pk
06 - Halberdiers – 4 – HF – Arm – Avg – Dr – HW
07 - Bowmen – 8 – LF – UnProt – Poor – Dr – Bw
08 - Free Canton Spears – 8 – MF – Prot – Avg – UnDr – Off Sp
09 - Mounted Crossbows – 4 – Cav – Arm – Avg – Dr – CB Sw
10 - Crossbowmen – 8 – MF – Prot – Avg – Dr – CB
11 - Handgunners – 4 – LF – Prot – Avg – Dr – Firearm
12 - Merc Men at Arms – 6 – Kn – Harm – Avg – Dr – Lnc Sw

The general idea I have is to have two somewhat independent blocks of two pike units and a halberd unit. The pikes will work side by side, with the halberds providing rear support for both and possibly moving to protect the flanks of the pikes.

The MF Spears are there to move into some terrain, hopefully on the flank of the two pike groups to give some protection there.

In front of this main infantry line will be the Bows, providing cannon fodder for the most part and with a bit of luck maybe an extra move or two.

Finally the Crossbow-Handgun and the Knight-Cav will work together, probably on opposite flanks. These are here mostly just to annoy the enemy’s flanks, although I think the Knight-Cav group will probably be able to cause a fair bit of damage when it hits things if I can use them well.

I’m unsure about whether the IC is necessary, but I think it may be with the amount of Average infantry that I have that is so vulnerable when disrupted, I really want to make sure I pass those Cohesion tests. The bonus of CMTs with the drilled troops will just be a bit of a bonus.

Any thoughts or comments are more than welcome, especially in regards to the IC and the deployment order, which I’m not really sure about.

Regards,

The Bishop.

[gozerius]

Looks good from here. Be careful with the mounted crossbows. They are a bit fragile if they run into massed shooting. I know.

[SirGarnet]

The idea of 2 pike & pole brigades sounds reasonable but I see it as presenting a lot of risk if you separate them. You want the enemy to have to fight your pikes somewhere, and if he can do it piecemeal against one brigade only then the better for him. 2 brigades have twice as many flanks to watch as one big brigade.

Lay it down on the drill table and see what they can do.

I expect the Free Canton Spearmen will probably end up in 3 ranks extending or bridging PIkes or supporting the Knights on a wing where there isn't a critical terrain issue.

6 Crossbowmen are more nimble than 8 and a target for lots of things. Popping them through gaps in the line to shoot suitable targets is a tactic I find annoying to play against. I would use the points saved to make the LF Bow average.

Using the Handgunners in conjunction with other shooters is how they are useful - it could be the Crossbows, or the Mounted Crossbows or the Archers - play it as it looks best. The LF are probably going to push forward at the start to gain manoeuvre room and then fall back to tactically desirable positions.

If you are going to use the Knights to manoeuvre as a reserve/interception force, Drilled makes sense, but if you are going to commit them to a shock role with the Mtd Crossbow in flanking support then Superior Undrilled is a lot scarier with more punch.

As drilled as you are, an IC is not needed much for movement, but, on the other hand, most of the army could fall within his scope and he is helpful for all those protected and average troops vs. shooters as you say.

Personally, I would take some Battle Wagons to roll forward covering a flank - but that doesn't mean I think it's the wisest idea since they are slow.

Mike

[gozerius]

Post 1450 Germans don't have a superior knight option. Battle wagons are cute but completely worthless to this drilled manuever army. One could bring in a Swiss ally for superior pike. A variation on this theme is a post 1478 Low Countries army. You lose the mounted xbow, but gain MF longbow,swordsman.

[ethan]

I would try and get 2x4s of Drilled knights instead of hte single six. This whole army is pretty maneuverable and being able to threaten two areas with knights would be very handy. Mabye drop 2 MF xbows and 2 MF bows to get you close to the AP required.

[Ghaznavid]

Like Gozerius suggested I would consider taking an Swiss ally. That would allow you to field say half of those pikes and halberdiers as superior, which can make all the difference.

[ethan]

You can probably afford to drop a TC as well, IC+2xTC is probably enough for this army.

[Scrumpy]

By taking a Swiss ally you can also field a pre 1450 army with the superior undrilled knights & some decent spear to support the pike.

[gozerius]

Low Countries between 1450 and 1465 can have pike and superior undrilled knights.

[footslogger]

Hell, just go for some successor crap and forget about the knights!

[DaiSho]

Hell, just go for some successor crap and forget about the knights!

Footslogger, your bias is showing

Ian

[The_Bishop]

Thanks for all the great replies guys. There are certainly a lot of nice suggestions out there, but probably the most comforting fact is that most of them are only slight tweaks, which says to me that I didn't do all that horribly in my first attempt. To respond to the actual reccomendations, you've probably provided just enough different pieces of advice to get me thoroughly confused, but I will certainly be having a look at both the Swiss Allies and the possible Low Countries lists, just to have a fiddle around with the final versions of the list.

Thanks once again to everyone who took the time to have a look and let me know their thoughts.

Regards,
The Bishop

[DaiSho]

Thanks for all the great replies guys. There are certainly a lot of nice suggestions out there, but probably the most comforting fact is that most of them are only slight tweaks, which says to me that I didn't do all that horribly in my first attempt. To respond to the actual reccomendations, you've probably provided just enough different pieces of advice to get me thuroughly confused, but I will certainly be having a look at both the Swiss Allies and the possibly Low Countries lists, just to have a fiddle around with the final versions of the list.

Thanks once agian to everyone who took the time to have a look and let me know their thoughts.

Regards,
The Bishop

Just an idea (it's a lot of points) but 4 knights can support 8 pike. Thus, you can have 4 knights in column behind two groups of pike and they are supporting both. I think using your halberdiers for this makes a very useful troop type less useful. The knights move faster (although only slightly) and because they are average they are going to be a target against enemy knights. Keeping them safely tucked away protects them and allows them to be used when the coup de grace is needed. Incidentally, the same can be said for the Free Canton spearmen. If you don't have a nice piece of terrain to fight over, just use them as rear support.

Ian

[SirGarnet]

To respond to the actual reccomendations, you've probably provided just enough different pieces of advice to get me thuroughly confused,

This isn't the first set of rules and army lists with complicated Medieval Germans!

On rear support troops, it's most efficient to take something cheap that's just enough bases and quality to support 2 important BGs. The closest to ideal in the list is probably some canton spears, though cheap foot in 4s are better. The Knights might wind up behind Pikes at times but doctrinally thinking of them as rear support puts one's mind on the wrong track. Flank cover, offensive troops, sure . . . .

In case I wasn't clear, I was suggesting BWG are not a good idea - but I'd take them for the fun of it.

[DaiSho]

To respond to the actual reccomendations, you've probably provided just enough different pieces of advice to get me thuroughly confused,

This isn't the first set of rules and army lists with complicated Medieval Germans!

On rear support troops, it's most efficient to take something cheap that's just enough bases and quality to support 2 important BGs. The closest to ideal in the list is probably some canton spears, though cheap foot in 4s are better. The Knights might wind up behind Pikes at times but doctrinally thinking of them as rear support puts one's mind on the wrong track. Flank cover, offensive troops, sure . . . .

In case I wasn't clear, I was suggesting BWG are not a good idea - but I'd take them for the fun of it.

Hi Mike,

I agree with you about the rear support, but my thought of the knights was if you put them behind the pike that are on the flank you're in position to quickly turn (you're drilled after all) to protect the flank if need be, and in position to give rear support until then. I think that German Knights just don't have the quality to mix it with the big boys.

Ian

[recharge]

Battlewagons can be a lot of fun! Watch your opponents knights bounce off them- disrupted

Of course, just getting them to move can give you an ulcer - if you roll the way I do. But, I always throw in a couple of groups with my Germans

John

[gozerius]

Didn't mean to confuse. The LM German list has a personality split at 1450 when it becomes almost a completely different army vis pre-1450, due to the reclassification of the compulsary troop types. I currently have a Landsknecht army with Maximilian as the CinC. Very similar to yours but with fewer pike and more mounted.

[footslogger]

Hell, just go for some successor crap and forget about the knights!

Footslogger, your bias is showing

Ian

Sorry Ian. I was being flippant. It just seemed things were getting pretty far adrift already so I thought I'd push it WAY out....

[DaiSho]

Hell, just go for some successor crap and forget about the knights!

Footslogger, your bias is showing

Ian

Sorry Ian. I was being flippant. It just seemed things were getting pretty far adrift already so I thought I'd push it WAY out....

It's ok. I just know whenever my bias is showing I appreciate people telling me. I mean, I know now adays it's fashionable to have the band of your bias showing above your jeans, but I dunno, I just don't have the body to pull it off. I tuck my shirt in to make sure.

Ian