OOB vs PC2 game mechanics

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Mojko
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OOB vs PC2 game mechanics

Post by Mojko »

I would like to provide you with an in-depth comparison of the Order of Battle and Panzer Corps 2 game mechanics. I'm purposefully omitting discussion about graphics and scenario design to keep the discussion focused on game mechanics only. I broke the game mechanics into multiple sections. Each section will have a description, comparison and also a winner. The goal is to provide some context for people who are not sure if they want to try OOB and how is it different from PC2. I find both games very enjoyable to play 8) . Feel free to post your opinions on the various sections as well :D.

Supply nodes

OOB - limited supply nodes
PC2 - unlimited supply nodes, border supply

In OOB every supply node has a specific number of supply this node provides which can be affected by interactions with some units (strategic bomber - damage, engineer - repair). This enables interesting opportunities in scenario design as a player may be highly motivated to defend certain supply nodes instead of abandoning certain areas and shortening front lines. On the other hand, in PC2 such strategic supply decisions are not present. Supply decisions are limited local encirclements especially because every border tile acts as a supply node. Damaging supply nodes is also not possible.

Transparency of the supply mechanic is explicit in OOB as the UI indicates supply areas for every team. Supply values of nodes can be shown on demand with supply overlay. PC2 has no such UI and player is left guessing where the supply route weaknesses are.

Winner: OOB

Encirclement / deny supply

OOB - tactical to strategic level
PC2 - tactical level only

PC2 has infinite value supply nodes and the border of the map also provides an infinite supply

Denying supply on a large scale is mostly not possible which limits the player choice of strategy.

Winner: OOB

Unit upgrades location

OOB - upgrade for core units can happen anywhere (outside off deployment phase)
PC2 - upgrades for all units available only on supply hex only (outside off deployment phase)

Limiting the option to upgrade units gives the player an opportunity to make interesting decisions. Good planning and insight are rewarded.

Winner: PC2

Unit upgrades availability

OOB - no upgrades for auxiliary units
PC2 - upgrades for auxiliary units possible

The possibility of the upgrading of auxiliary units is potentially problematic for scenario design as it introduces another variable that depends on the player. A player with a lot of resources may turn a weak auxiliary unit into a much more powerful unit which throws the scenario out of balance.

Winner: OOB

Unit upgrades cost

OOB - upgrade penalties present, discount groups available
PC2 - no upgrade penalties, unit cost difference is paid even if negative

Having no unit upgrade penalties means less decision making possibilities as a unit upgrade can be reverted any penalties. This makes unit upgrade choice much less impactful.

Winner: OOB

Interchange the position of two adjacent units

OOB - yes
PC2 - yes (no custom hotkey)  

Airforce - bombing runs

OOB - multiple bombing runs
PC2 - single bombing run

Having the option to bomb one unit with only one plane means that the player has to choose targets much more carefully. This leads to more interesting decision-making situations.

Winner: PC2  

Airforce - fuel system

OOB - fuel system, landed aircraft vulnerability
PC2 - no fuel, auto return to airfield at the end of turn

Without a fuel system in PC2 there is no fuel management layer that takes away decision making from opportunity from the player. Fuel management is especially interesting when both planes and airports move separately (aircraft carrier) which requires good coordination. This is where OOB shines and it also provides the ability to damage landed aircraft which is impossible in PC2.

Winner: OOB  

Organic transport

OOB - no
PC2 - yes

This feature allows a unit that is using transport to choose to move less than the maximum range in order to perform disembark action at the end at the cost of losing attack action. This makes the towed and foot units more viable and gives the player more choice when it comes to unit composition.

Winner: PC2

Leaders

OOB - scenario designer choice, single leader per unit
PC2 - random, up to 3 leaders per unit

Scenario designer choice gives better historical flavor experience but on the other hand, random leader reward increases replayability. Overall, PC2 has leaders who are more impactful as multiple leaders can be assigned to a single unit producing interesting combinations.

Winner: PC2

Captured equipment

OOB - scenario designer choice
PC2 - the player can attempt to encircle and capture

Giving the player the option to capture enemy vehicles as a game mechanic produces interesting choices. For example, capturing Matilda tanks early on gives player advantage as early German tanks are much more fragile. It also opens interesting opportunities for a campaign like the Winter War where capturing enemy equipment may be much more necessary.

Winner: PC2  

Unit survivability

OOB - high
PC2 - low

OOB has built-in mechanics that help weakened units survive. For example, artillery deals less damage to units with less strength, aircraft takes less damage when low on strength. On the other hand, PC2 has mechanics that promote the opposite like overstrength and overwhelm. Making the units survive longer gives more choice and opportunity to make impactful decisions.

For example, the player can choose to encircle just to cut off enemy retreat.

Winner: OOB

Support fire

OOB - anti-tank, anti-air
PC2 - anti-tank, anti-air, infantry-support, counter-battery, destroyer-land-support

PC2 introduced multiple types of support fire and these are distributed among units as traits. Typically, smaller caliber artillery provides infantry-support and higher caliber artillery provides counter-battery fire. This gives the player a good reason to pick any of the wide range of artillery, not just the heaviest ones.

Winner: PC2

Naval combat

OOB - advanced, damaged units have penalties (attack, movement)
PC2 - basic, damaged units have no combat penalties

OOB provides complex naval combat with features such as unit maneuvering (reduced damage when moving), torpedo attacks vulnerability, carriers (carrier aircraft), damaged unit management and unit landing system (related to supply and efficiency). Naval combat in PC2 is essentially land combat on water.

Winner: OOB

Player traits

OOB - tree-like skill structure which is unlocked over time, low to medium impact (with exceptions), all skills are positive
PC2 - skills are chosen at the start and are never changed, medium to high impact, skills can be positive and negative

PC2 introduced a strength-weakness system that allows the player to take on weaknesses in order to pick up strengths. The impact of this selection is in effect from the start of the game and remains in place until the end of the campaign. This allows the player to alter the game rules to suit own playstyle. This means more interesting decisions and more replayability.

Winner: PC2 

Transport supply cost

OOB - fixed, any unit transport costs the same
PC2 - variable, horse and truck transport costs 0 slots/supply, armored transport costs 1 slots/supply

Having different transport costs in terms of supply produces more interesting choices for the player.

Winner: PC2 

Prototypes

OOB - scenario designer choice
PC2 - built-in mechanic

PC2 gives the player the option to use prototypes which are limited units. These can be purchased only in limited quantities. This gives the player interesting choices to make as prototype units are often difficult to reinforce but are likely to be more powerful compared to regular units.

Winner: PC2 

Recon units

OOB - dedicated unit class, no combat bonuses
PC2 - no dedicated unit class (recon, tactical bomber), combat bonuses

PC2 added an interesting mechanic for recons - they provide combat bonuses for adjacent units (depends if it's a ground or air recon). Combat bonuses make other units do more damage and suffer fewer casualties. On the other hand, OOB has very little use of ground recon units.

Winner: PC2

Resource pools

OOB - separate resource pools possible for auxiliary units
PC2 - shared resource pool

OOB supports the option of having separate resource pools for different army groups. This provides the scenario with more possibilities for example "rescue isolated pocket" scenario is much better if the isolated army group has a separate resource pool so that player can't break the scenario balance with carry-over resources.

Winner: OOB

Suppression

OOB - carry-over until the unit rests
PC2 - no carry-over unless encircled

Quick suppression recovery in PC2 reduces the tactical options for the player and direct attack usually more viable compare to encirclement.

Winner: OOB

Looking forward to your feedback :D .
Last edited by Mojko on Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Linai
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Re: OOB vs PC2 game mechanics

Post by Linai »

Code: Select all

Author and maintainer of Unit Navigator Tool for Order Of Battle
Your bias is showin be way better if you left out dat stupid winner section
SineMora
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Re: OOB vs PC2 game mechanics

Post by SineMora »

You are welcome to your opinions -- and some of them are dubious to say the least -- buy you are flat out wrong on a number of points. It's perfectly possible to have two units switch positions, and that you do not understand how the logistics system works does not mean that you have to guess; the lack of an overlay means you might have to count hexes at times, but there is nothing random or unpredictable about the outcome, so large-scale encirclements are certainly viable.

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Kerensky
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Re: OOB vs PC2 game mechanics

Post by Kerensky »

SineMora wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:48 am You are welcome to your opinions -- and some of them are dubious to say the least -- buy you are flat out wrong on a number of points. It's perfectly possible to have two units switch positions, and that you do not understand how the logistics system works does not mean that you have to guess; the lack of an overlay means you might have to count hexes at times, but there is nothing random or unpredictable about the outcome, so large-scale encirclements are certainly viable.
I don't really feel the need for another 'Game vs Game' comparison debate. I think it's positive for both games to be distinctive from each other and not just straight up copying off of each other. More variety of gameplay means a wider audience can be satisfied by one if they feel the other doesn't quite operate they way they might like.

But yes, I would also like to point out the potential for awesome encirclements in Panzer Corps 2. :wink:

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And this one is the AI performing a massive encirclement ON ME! :shock:
It was a combination of being trapped by the Rhine River on the West, British garrison forces to my North, American attack waves to the South, and Britsh enroute to Berlin blocking me from the East.
Needless to say, I lost that run of Defenders of the Reich. There was no recovering from a disaster of that magnitude. lol

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Mojko
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Re: OOB vs PC2 game mechanics

Post by Mojko »

SineMora wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:48 amIt's perfectly possible to have two units switch positions,
Could you please elaborate on how to do the switch two units action? I couldn't find any hotkey for the action.
Kerensky wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:23 am But yes, I would also like to point out the potential for awesome encirclements in Panzer Corps 2. :wink:
That's good to see :) Maybe I just wasn't able to get to such scenarios. I'm at the start of the Caucasus scenario.
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terminator
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Re: OOB vs PC2 game mechanics

Post by terminator »

Mojko wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:33 am
SineMora wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:48 amIt's perfectly possible to have two units switch positions,
Could you please elaborate on how to do the switch two units action? I couldn't find any hotkey for the action.
In PzC2, select a unit then press Shift and click the adjacent unit with which you want to switch the position :idea:
Actually there is no indication on this keyboard shortcut and no indicator on the screen :(
impar
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Re: OOB vs PC2 game mechanics

Post by impar »

Was truly happy to see Switch being introduced in PC2. :D
Started a thread on it back in 2011:
viewtopic.php?f=121&t=30762
Settled on Swap instead of Switch as Switch is already used for switching between AT-AA, ART-AT, ...

As for the games comparison, I tried OoB, couldnt get into it. Something was missing, it just didnt "clicked".
With PC2, have 118 hours clocked by Steam.
jeffoot77
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Re: OOB vs PC2 game mechanics

Post by jeffoot77 »

to swich 2 units in PC2 : SHIFT+clic
my custom mini-campaign in order of battle :
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=374&t=79333&p=676302#p676302

Panzer corps mods archive (folders or zip versions) : http://jeffoot.freeboxos.fr:41226/share/KmCyju7JFZX6dD2B/
adiekmann
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Re: OOB vs PC2 game mechanics

Post by adiekmann »

As for the games comparison, I tried OoB, couldnt get into it. Something was missing, it just didnt "clicked".
With PC2, have 118 hours clocked by Steam.
[/quote]

I own OoB too, and couldn't get into it either, and believe me, I tried. The supply system...drove me nuts. I did not like it. Over-complicated. Same, if not worse, for the naval combat system.

I much prefer PC2. They have stuck the right balance I feel, but once again, to each their own.
adiekmann
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Re: OOB vs PC2 game mechanics

Post by adiekmann »

BTW, how do you properly quote only a portion of a previous post?!? Many of you do it, but I've never been able to figure it out.
SineMora
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Re: OOB vs PC2 game mechanics

Post by SineMora »

adiekmann wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:02 pm BTW, how do you properly quote only a portion of a previous post?!? Many of you do it, but I've never been able to figure it out.
The easiest way is to just use the quote option and then edit the quoted passage by removing the superfluous text.
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Mojko
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Re: OOB vs PC2 game mechanics

Post by Mojko »

jeffoot77 wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:25 am to swich 2 units in PC2 : SHIFT+clic
Thanks, that's really helpful :)
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Mojko
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Re: OOB vs PC2 game mechanics

Post by Mojko »

Is there an option in PC2 to save a game replay? This is a really handy feature in OOB where you can save a game replay after the game is finished and you can watch the whole game again. It's also useful for creating let's plays and sharing ideas with other players.
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Re: OOB vs PC2 game mechanics

Post by dalfrede »

Mojko wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:35 pm Is there an option in PC2 to save a game replay? This is a really handy feature in OOB where you can save a game replay after the game is finished and you can watch the whole game again. It's also useful for creating let's plays and sharing ideas with other players.
No.
The option exist in PzC1, so it may appear in PzC2 when they get the time.
There comes a time on every project when it is time to shoot the engineer and ship the damn thing.
PoorOldSpike
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Re: OOB vs PC2 game mechanics

Post by PoorOldSpike »

I was an OOB player (I made 439 posts in the OOB forum); I say "was" because I got fed up playing the same campaigns and scens over and over because it doesn't have a random mission generator like PC2 does.
But in my opinion OOB's supply system is far superior to PC2's, in fact when PC2 was still in development a couple of years ago I suggested to the PC2 devs that they could implement a supply system similar to OOB's, but I suppose it's too late now.
As for the OOB combat system (again it's just my opinion) I like it better than PC2's because it just "feels" more enjoyable (it's hard to define), except for the fact that OOB arty units don't provide automatic support for adjacent frontline units, grrr..
if they ever include a random generator in OOB I might go back to it..:)
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Re: OOB vs PC2 game mechanics

Post by PoorOldSpike »

adiekmann wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:01 pm..OoB...The supply system...drove me nuts. I did not like it. Over-complicated..
I'm a maths dummy who understands the OOB supply system, so if I can do it anybody can..:)
In most OOB scens there are never any supply problems because there are plenty of tins of bully beef and ammo etc to go round, but if supply begins getting a bit tight you get warned about it with big red numbers on the map and can hopefully solve it within a turn or two.
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Re: OOB vs PC2 game mechanics

Post by Snake97644 »

Yeah I had nearly 1000 hrs playing OOB, bought it back when the original pacific one came out. I do remember PoorOldSpike from the forum, though I lacked his vigor for posting. I played PC2, then bought the RedSteel dlc; I could not even finish it. After PC2 I just had a hard time getting into it again. It is a great series, and there are aspects where I think it does better than PC2, but I think overall Panzer Corps 2 has just pushed the "gameplay bar" up a generation. Perhaps I will go back to OOB in the manner I go back to classics from the past from time to time, like PG, PG2, and PeG. :mrgreen:
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Re: OOB vs PC2 game mechanics

Post by PoorOldSpike »

As I mentioned, OOB doesn't have a random mission generator but I thought I could get round that by creating my own scens with its editor, and introducing "random chance unit appearances" so that in every game I'd never know what the computer would be giving me and the AI.

"I have set my life upon a cast, and will stand the hazard of the die"- (Shakesp's Richard III before battle of Bosworth)

But sadly the OOB editor was incredibly complex and I could never get the hang of it so had to admit defeat (sniffle)
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