Pike Testing Workshop

Field of Glory II is a turn-based tactical game set during the Rise of Rome from 280 BC to 25 BC.
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Re: Pike Testing Workshop

Post by Geffalrus »

Schweetness101 wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:09 am how would it be different for 720 or 960 pikes?
It would change the melee dynamic after the first few casualties, definitely change the unit cost, and would affect how vulnerable they were to missile attack. As best I understand. Personally I think armor is a better method of providing them missile defense, but I won't do that for larger sizes since that'd kick the cost up too much. And keeping pikes affordable is like the whole goal. :lol:

I would like to keep it at 480 for now even if that means we have to redo things a bit later. I would like to be able to show rbodley a truly alternative pike unit that hopefully has proper functionality. He might still reject it, but at least it was tried.

In regards to the cohesion ideas, I was thinking that we could do one or both of the following:

1) Heavy infantry non-pikes get an extra +1 cohesion bonus vs. pikes. The idea here being that pikes weren't designed to cause fractures in opposing units during melee combat. It was more important for the pike ranks to stay cohesive, which limited their ability to exploit weaknesses in the enemy line. Unlike Roman infantry, for example, who would be quite deadly once they got in close. In game terms, it would encourage drawn out fights and further hinder the ability of pikes to roll over cohorts, warbands, and hoplites. Medium foot would be unchanged.

- This is a relatively new idea, so I haven't thought through every implication of it, or 100% cross-checked it with my list of historical examples. It occurred to me as a way of slowing down the melee and/or reducing the cost of the pike.

2) Pikes lose their +1 cohesion bonus vs. other pikes. Mentioned in the other thread as a way to replicate the willingness of pikes to surrender to other Diadochi since they'd be happily recruited and how pike vs. pike contests were more decisive than what we see against Romans and hoplites. Could also simulate the clash proceeding quicker since both sides could more effectively strike each other.

- Again, this is a newish idea, and not 100% fleshed out.
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Re: Pike Testing Workshop

Post by Geffalrus »

Mairtin wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:13 am
Where is then? Continuing with 480 will give different results to 960.

I'm not saying I don't agree with the need to adjust how pikes work. I don't think they should be the steam roller they currently seem to be, but should rather be good at pinning the enemy until friends can arrive to roll up the flanks, and neither side (at least against romans) should be taking many casualties if in good order.
The other thread, the one I started originally. This one's more focused on hashing out the unit based on testing results and general guidelines that are hashed out in that original thread. This way, one doesn't clog up the other and cause confusion. I certainly get lost when there's too many reply comments. :lol:
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Re: Pike Testing Workshop

Post by Schweetness101 »

MVP7 wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:36 pm Schweetness, have you been running the tests with 480 or 960 men? The unit size probably won't change unless you happen to locate some lost scrolls from Library of Alexandria that happen to establish the pikes moving and fighting in shallow formations.
I have the scrolls but you can't see them :P

I'm leaning towards just making them 720 as a bit of a compromise, because it seems like they should have some manpower advantage over hoplites and legions, but 960 is so much it's hard to make them cheap in the way we want. Those are of course gameplay, and not exactly historical considerations per se on the 'bottom up' detail level, but the ultimate goal is, for me anyway, to get pike based classical antiquity armies fighting a bit more historically on the whole, from a 'top down' design perspective, with lots of pikes holding the line and cav dealing the decisive blow, as contrasted with how it is now where pikes do the main steamrolling.
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Re: Pike Testing Workshop

Post by Geffalrus »

Schweetness101 wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:44 am
MVP7 wrote: Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:36 pm Schweetness, have you been running the tests with 480 or 960 men? The unit size probably won't change unless you happen to locate some lost scrolls from Library of Alexandria that happen to establish the pikes moving and fighting in shallow formations.
I have the scrolls but you can't see them :P

I'm leaning towards just making them 720 as a bit of a compromise, because it seems like they should have some manpower advantage over hoplites and legions, but 960 is so much it's hard to make them cheap in the way we want. Those are of course gameplay, and not exactly historical considerations per se on the 'bottom up' detail level, but the ultimate goal is, for me anyway, to get pike based classical antiquity armies fighting a bit more historically on the whole, from a 'top down' design perspective, with lots of pikes holding the line and cav dealing the decisive blow, as contrasted with how it is now where pikes do the main steamrolling.
*high five

I'm comfortable testing with 720 and removing slightly armored. My theory is that 720 and no deep pike means they won't be toooooo vulnerable to missiles, and will have the right amount of melee oomf to not get rapidly rolled over in the open. Heaven help them if they get disrupted, though.........
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Re: Pike Testing Workshop

Post by pompeytheflatulent »

First, is RBS even willing to consider implementing 720 sized pike units? If not, why are you wasting your time testing them?

Second, as you guys continue to push off having to finalize unit size before testing melee balance, please explain to me why in the following screenshot, the thureophoroi has a 33% win chance despite having even 100 vs 100 POA with the cavalry they're fighting.
Duh, unit size don't matter much so we could totally test melee balance while kicking the bucket down the road, right?
Duh, unit size don't matter much so we could totally test melee balance while kicking the bucket down the road, right?
Screen_00000008.jpg (804.52 KiB) Viewed 2633 times
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Re: Pike Testing Workshop

Post by Schweetness101 »

pompeytheflatulent wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:22 am First, is RBS even willing to consider implementing 720 sized pike units? If not, why are you wasting your time testing them?

Second, as you guys continue to push off having to finalize unit size before testing melee balance, please explain to me why in the following screenshot, the thureophoroi has a 33% win chance despite having even 100 vs 100 POA with the cavalry they're fighting.
I don't know about rbodleyscott implementing anything, but I just wanted to make a mod, hopefully multiplayer eventually, to try out some alternative pike ideas, and if someone wanted to play me in a multiplayer game using them then that would be swell :)

And, I think because of combat strength modifier for the thureophoroi
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Re: Pike Testing Workshop

Post by Schweetness101 »

Alright I have made the following additional changes and briefly tested them:

impact poa mounted light spear reduced to 0 from 50 vs steady pikes (other cav impact poas are already 0 vs steady pikes)

Ele impact POA Reduced to 150 if Elephants vs steady pikes

Ele melee POA reduced to 50 vs steady pikes (did you mention this?)

removed -1 ct modifier for pikes on impact vs impact foot

added +1 ct modifier for average and above heavy foot vs pikes

and now pikes are 720 and 3 rows, average quality and some armor. I can change them to 480 very easily, or you can if you want to try it out and change it locally.

I have their base melee as 100 poa and impact as 125 poa as per some above post (there's a lot of them now). I think that's a good impact POA, but let's test and see if 100 would be better. Impact foot POA already reduced by 100 on impact vs steady pikes. Pikes have above reduced POAs when disrupted, and eliminated POAs when fragmented, although I think you suggested eliminating them all on disruption. We should test those two ideas out as well. I didn't do anything with non-open terrain for pikes so I'm guessing that's still just cancelling their impact POA, not sure where that code section is.

they should have the POA matches in melee and impact vs warband, hoplites and hastati that you mentioned in your earlier post.

What's the best way for me to go about hosting these files somewhere for anyone to download and test out? I'll look around
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Re: Pike Testing Workshop

Post by Schweetness101 »

another quick note, we have not yet discussed heavy weapon vs pikes, any thoughts on rhomphaia vs pikes now?

EDIT3: can't get mediafire to work without requiring you to download each file individually, so I made a dropbox account and here is a link:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1wqfc352qmqo ... hQLza?dl=0

I had to mess with it a bit to manually get rid of some random notes .txt and visual studio .vs folders and suo files etc...but it doesn't need those to work.

If you download that folder and place it in your

C:\Users\YourName\Documents\My Games\FieldOfGlory2\CAMPAIGNS

folder it should permit you to launch the mod in the editor and in epic battles.

the test scenarios I made should also be in there but you can of course make new ones

let me know if it doesn't work
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Re: Pike Testing Workshop

Post by skyman2202 »

Quick question that I have been searching for an answer on...

Why is P&S no longer available for OS? I use to play it religiously on iPad. Will there be a re-release on OS for either Mac, iPad, or both?
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Re: Pike Testing Workshop

Post by rbodleyscott »

skyman2202 wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:39 am Quick question that I have been searching for an answer on...

Why is P&S no longer available for OS? I use to play it religiously on iPad. Will there be a re-release on OS for either Mac, iPad, or both?
It is a 32-bit program and the Apple store no longer stocks 32-bit programs. Sadly, conversion to 64-bit is not economically viable for us.
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Re: Pike Testing Workshop

Post by Geffalrus »

pompeytheflatulent wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:22 am First, is RBS even willing to consider implementing 720 sized pike units? If not, why are you wasting your time testing them?

Second, as you guys continue to push off having to finalize unit size before testing melee balance, please explain to me why in the following screenshot, the thureophoroi has a 33% win chance despite having even 100 vs 100 POA with the cavalry they're fighting.

Screen_00000008.jpg
1) Easy bud, you're coming off as a little aggressive. Not sure why this endeavor is making people low key hostile.

2) If schweetness is willing to spend time testing variations of pikes - even ones that we're not sure rbodley will ever approve - then I think it's valuable information generated that could be used at some point. If at any point he doesn't want to test non-960 pikes, then that's fine by me.

3) Cavalry are 240 size. My understanding is that unit size penalties kick in once a unit goes below 480. So cavalry are always vulnerable, while most infantry units only gradually become vulnerable as they take casualties. Pikes and warbands take the longest to go below 480 for obvious reasons. Instead, current pikes have the deep pike decrease mechanic.
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Re: Pike Testing Workshop

Post by Geffalrus »

Schweetness101 wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:14 am Alright I have made the following additional changes and briefly tested them:

Ele melee POA reduced to 50 vs steady pikes (did you mention this?)

removed -1 ct modifier for pikes on impact vs impact foot

added +1 ct modifier for average and above heavy foot vs pikes

and now pikes are 720 and 3 rows, average quality and some armor. I can change them to 480 very easily, or you can if you want to try it out and change it locally.

I have their base melee as 100 poa and impact as 125 poa as per some above post (there's a lot of them now). I think that's a good impact POA, but let's test and see if 100 would be better. Impact foot POA already reduced by 100 on impact vs steady pikes. Pikes have above reduced POAs when disrupted, and eliminated POAs when fragmented, although I think you suggested eliminating them all on disruption. We should test those two ideas out as well. I didn't do anything with non-open terrain for pikes so I'm guessing that's still just cancelling their impact POA, not sure where that code section is.

they should have the POA matches in melee and impact vs warband, hoplites and hastati that you mentioned in your earlier post.

What's the best way for me to go about hosting these files somewhere for anyone to download and test out? I'll look around
Elephant POA change seems fine pending testing.

The change for removing the -1 ct modifier on impact.......is that removing the -1 penalty to cohesion that pikes (like other foot) get when losing impact to impact foot? I think that should probably be kept. Let me know if I'm not reading that correctly.

I'll check the download! Testing this out directly should be rather fun. :)
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Re: Pike Testing Workshop

Post by Schweetness101 »

Geffalrus wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:34 pm
The change for removing the -1 ct modifier on impact.......is that removing the -1 penalty to cohesion that pikes (like other foot) get when losing impact to impact foot? I think that should probably be kept. Let me know if I'm not reading that correctly.
yes that's correct. For some reason I thought I remembered reading something about removing -1 CTs imposed on pikes by other infantry, or by impact on impact or whatever to increase the Pike staying power...dunno there was a lot of things being discussed lol.
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Re: Pike Testing Workshop

Post by pompeytheflatulent »

Geffalrus wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:16 pm 1) Easy bud, you're coming off as a little aggressive. Not sure why this endeavor is making people low key hostile.

2) If schweetness is willing to spend time testing variations of pikes - even ones that we're not sure rbodley will ever approve - then I think it's valuable information generated that could be used at some point. If at any point he doesn't want to test non-960 pikes, then that's fine by me.

3) Cavalry are 240 size. My understanding is that unit size penalties kick in once a unit goes below 480. So cavalry are always vulnerable, while most infantry units only gradually become vulnerable as they take casualties. Pikes and warbands take the longest to go below 480 for obvious reasons. Instead, current pikes have the deep pike decrease mechanic.
Sorry, I let my natural sarcastic asshole-ness shine through. Still it's a shame that a project that started out with so much promise is going down the direction of a small niche mod played by relatively few people that turns pikes into, what? a small fragile impact foot clone?
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Re: Pike Testing Workshop

Post by Geffalrus »

Schweetness101 wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:41 pm yes that's correct. For some reason I thought I remembered reading something about removing -1 CTs imposed on pikes by other infantry, or by impact on impact or whatever to increase the Pike staying power...dunno there was a lot of things being discussed lol.
:lol: Yeah, you're not wrong - a lot of ideas are flying around. Testament to the adaptability of the game and it's mechanics! Good call to set up this thread.

I think it's something to store in a "potential ideas" place. If we're finding that pikes still aren't performing quite as intended when adjusted for cost, then removing the impact poa penalty could be a limited way to buff them.

My view is that if impact foot are lucky enough to get a good roll, it still rewards them somewhat. I'm more focused on adjusting the POA and cost to make most impact foot less likely to cause a cohesion check. Unless they're high cost legions with great morale, in which case they should still be dangerous on impact. To limit that danger you need your own superior pikes, which will be more affordable than they are now.

Oh, heavy weapons. Treat them just like offensive spears I think. 100/100 poa in impact melee. What's their effect on armor these days?
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Re: Pike Testing Workshop

Post by Schweetness101 »

pompeytheflatulent wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:18 pm Sorry, I let my natural sarcastic asshole-ness shine through. Still it's a shame that a project that started out with so much promise is going down the direction of a small niche mod played by relatively few people that turns pikes into, what? a small fragile impact foot clone?
np, if you did want to change the way pikes behave, what would you do? Both from the holistic basic idea/direction you'd like to see them in, and also perhaps speculate on specifics for armor, quality, size, price, POAs, situational/terrain/cohesion changes to POAs etc...?
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Re: Pike Testing Workshop

Post by Geffalrus »

pompeytheflatulent wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:18 pm
Sorry, I let my natural sarcastic asshole-ness shine through. Still it's a shame that a project that started out with so much promise is going down the direction of a small niche mod played by relatively few people that turns pikes into, what? a small fragile impact foot clone?
No worries - communicating without traditional visual cues is always a little tricky for nuance.

I don't think a niche mod is the intended end state. My view is that it's a tool for testing so that we can see what proposed changes will actually do. That way whatever we suggest, we'll have some data and/or demonstrations to back it up.

I think there is a broad spectrum of options for improving pikes. Changes to cost and POA can happen in a variety ways. Ultimately, I think that it's important to change the Hellenistic pike meta away from something that encourages their use as expensive wrecking balls. The developer cares about historical authenticity, and I don't think the current manifestation matches the historical record. Sure, maybe he won't like the most radical proposal we can put together. But I still think doing a good job of testing and designing that alternative is a worthy endeavor. Shooting for that alternative doesn't mean we can't also consider less radical approaches. They're worthwhile too.

I know they seem a bit like impact foot lite. I think pikes neutralizing other POA rather than having high POA might actually make them truly unique. It's not like they're currently all that much different than impact foot. They both have high impact POA, and the pikes have good melee ability like the Romans. They're expensive steamrollers, which I don't think is correct. Pikes that work more by neutralizing POA of others seems more unique to me than how they currently are. How we get to that endstate is up for debate.
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Re: Pike Testing Workshop

Post by pompeytheflatulent »

From what I can decipher from the voodoo of the pricing chart, if I'm not completely misreading it:

-It's possible to reduce the price of bog-standard, 960 sized vanilla pikes from 72 to 64 points by reducing its armor from protected to lightly protected, at the cost of only 12 melee POA and going from 16% ranged damage reduction to 8%.

-Going the other way, a 480 sized unit of above average, some armor, pike would cost around 53 points apiece (taking 61 point hastati and swapping pikes for impact foot/swordman, resulting in 1 point saved per model.

-Pike capability is already dirt cheap at 1 point per model, on par with defensive spearmen. I think this is the biggest obstacle in terms of price reduction, since I don't see a plausible way to justify lowering the cost to 0.5 per model, no matter how much you change its POA mechanics. Not when offensive spearmen and impact foot/swordman cost 2 points per model. In fact, some the the changes to POA considered so far might argue toward an increase in cost of pikes per model.
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Re: Pike Testing Workshop

Post by Schweetness101 »

pompeytheflatulent wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:50 pm
-It's possible to reduce the price of bog-standard, 960 sized vanilla pikes from 72 to 64 points by reducing its armor from protected to lightly protected, at the cost of only 12 melee POA and going from 16% ranged damage reduction to 8%.

-Going the other way, a 480 sized unit of above average, some armor, pike would cost around 53 points apiece (taking 61 point hastati and swapping pikes for impact foot/swordman, resulting in 1 point saved per model.
what could get it down to 48 (comparable cost to hoplites)? If it were 720 men and what?
pompeytheflatulent wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:50 pm -Pike capability is already dirt cheap at 1 point per model, on par with defensive spearmen. I think this is the biggest obstacle in terms of price reduction, since I don't see a plausible way to justify lowering the cost to 0.5 per model, no matter how much you change its POA mechanics. Not when offensive spearmen and impact foot/swordman cost 2 points per model.
can you explain the points per model calculus a bit more? Is that from the 'points values revised' sheet?

protected/average would be +5 (no extra for drilled, ie keep unmaneuverable)
pike combat capability +1
total: 6

So if we did 480 men/8 models it would be 8 * 6 = 48?
for 12 models: 72
and 16 models: 96
I feel like I did something wrong there...72 is for current default average, protected 16 model pikes, and 96 for default veteran pikes?

sorry I'm a bit confused here.

**+2 extra per base for Determined Foot? Are pikes determined foot? I dunno what that is but I've seen it in the code a bit.
pompeytheflatulent wrote: Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:50 pm In fact, some the the changes to POA considered so far might argue toward an increase in cost of pikes per model.
could you explain in detail so I understand?
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Re: Pike Testing Workshop

Post by Schweetness101 »

overall with these changes a pike line (@720, average, some armor) is still grinding away at a hastati line pretty badly, in a 10vs10 routing 3 and disrupting 3 for pike 1 routed and 1 disrupted by 8 turns in, and winning with 2 broken, 1 disrupted pikes vs 6 broken, 2 disrupted, 1 fragmented hastati by 9 turns in.

Doing the same 10v10 with average, some armor pikes but @480/8models unit size and the pikes lost, suffering 5 breaks vs no broken (but 2 fragmented and 1 disrupted) hastati.

I think I should maybe really up the +1 to CTs of non pike heavy foot vs pikes, and also of pikes vs non pike heavy foot, to keep them at it for awhile, but also or instead figure out how to decrease casualties without changing POAs and CT modifiers. The hastati are still often taking 40+ losses per lost melee round against pikes in the first pikes @720 scenario. Maybe there is a way to add a unique vs pikes casualty modifier somewhere. I'll look around to see where the actual number of casualties is calculated.
Last edited by Schweetness101 on Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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