Pike Re-Balance Workshop

[desicat]

Was just in a Campaign battle vs the AI and a Macedonian Pike unit formed square as it was the correct thing to do under the tactical circumstances - would hate to see such a unique capability lost in a "rebalancing" effort.

[Schweetness101]

Here is a list of suggestions based on what seems plausible and what others have mentioned in this thread:

*This is directly addressing the normal 'Pike Phalanx' unit (can address unique stats for raw and veteran pikes later)

Cost: 52? would that be low enough to get the appropriate number of them?
Quality: Above Average? to help with staying power
Armor: Protected? or should it be upgraded to 'some armor' to give greater protection
vs ranged and more staying power in melee?
*their model has a pretty large shield, open face helmet, greeves, and linothorax, plus the 'armor' protection from a forest of pikes, that seems to be at least 'some armor?' Or I guess 'armour' around these parts lol
Special Unit Features: Retain unmaneuverable and large artillery target?

Impact and Melee POA:
Base +100?
but how affected by:
Moderate and Severe Disorder?
Disruption and Fragmentation?

Terrain:
Should change to be like cataphracts where severely disordered even by rough terrain?
that would take care of above hit to POA if in rough terrain at all

Mancount (I think tied to model numbers): 8, 12 or 16?
TotalMen (displayed size): 480, 720, or 960? other?
UnitSize: always 1.25x TotalMen

Suggested Special Cohesion Test Modifiers:
additional +1 in open terrain if steady
get rid of -1 from receiving charges (from impact foot, lancers and ele?)
additional -1 on impact if flanked
additional -1 if disordered/disrupted at all
should not impose any negative modifiers on other infantry?

Pushbacks and Pursuits:
is this worth changing?

Special POA modifiers:
retain loss of POA when charging Mounted Shock troops or in non open terrain
mutual loss of impact POA with impact foot?
Vs swords, pikes and spearmen in sustained melee?

*I don't know the history well enough here, should they be effective or ineffective on impact vs in melee, and vs who?

Maybe this: they have a low impact POA, but also negate the impact POA of other infantry so that they do not commonly lose on impact vs impact foot or offensive spears? But, should they win or lose a protracted melee with phalanxes and/or legions?
Maybe they should barely win very slowly in protracted melee but be totally devastated by flank charges?

Is there an historical example of pikes vs legions or pikes vs phalanxes where rather than one side getting a quick flank and victory in they ground each other down for hours on end in protracted melee?

[Schweetness101]

Was just in a Campaign battle vs the AI and a Macedonian Pike unit formed square as it was the correct thing to do under the tactical circumstances - would hate to see such a unique capability lost in a "rebalancing" effort.

retaining forming square or not isn't a hill I'm willing to die on either way, but it would be one way to justify lowering the cost. of the unit

[Geffalrus]

I could do with some suggestions now. I've been testing a few things and have realized/need design help on:

Let's start simple and work from there. Presumably, what you can test is how units fare when impacting and melee? I would think that we can delay cost discussions until later. We'd need a workable unit array before that point.

For now, can you:

- Change pike POA to Impact 200, Melee 100? (Removing Deep Pike and it's connection to unit model number)
- I'm assuming that it would be easy to change the Pike trait to Imp 200 and Melee 100.
- Then run a few tests with how that unit works vs:
--Citizen Hoplite
--Warband (Close Order)
--Hastati/Principes
--Marian Legion (Impact, Superior, Armored)

I can guess how those tests will probably turn out, so you don't need to go crazy. Just like a couple permutations. More about just making sure the changes work and have predictable effects in game.

Things not changing:
- Square ability remains
- 4 ranks remains
- Unmaneuverable remains
- Morale remains Average
- No direct attempt to alter behavior in non-open terrain.
- All tests should be on simple open terrain.

Once we have that baseline, then we can move on to testing the more complicated suggestions. Things like altering Impact POA vs. pikes, changing # of ranks, removing square, making morale above average, adding armored trait, etc.

[Schweetness101]

Let's start simple and work from there...

sounds good Geffalrus! One question, is there a tutorial somewhere on how to use the editor with a mod to make a simple scenario like you describe so I can test this quickly? it is very time consuming to keep using custom battles to test.

[Geffalrus]

Is there an historical example of pikes vs legions or pikes vs phalanxes where rather than one side getting a quick flank and victory in they ground each other down for hours on end in protracted melee?

Battle of Heraclea:
- Best we can tell from the sources, the Romans made multiple attacks on the Epeirote Pike Phalanx, but couldn't break it. The battle was an infantry stalemate until the elephants were sent against the Roman cavalry, routing them from the field. This disrupted the Roman infantry, at which point Pyrrhus sent in the Thessalian cavalry to complete the rout. This supports the idea that phalanx vs. pre-Marian legions was an indecisive contest that needed cavalry/elephants to seal the deal.

Battle of Asculum:
- Tricky to parse, but again, it looks like an indecisive contest of cohorts vs. phalanx. Unlike the phalanx, the Italian allies of Pyrrhus were successfully driven off by Roman infantry, and it took the elephants to again secure "victory."

Battle of Beneventum:
- Not a lot of info on the infantry contest in the battle. The Romans gained victory due to the successful panicking of the elephants, which threw the Epeirote army into disarray (nicely modeled in this game, btw).


There's not a lot of grinding in the Wars of the Diadochi, because the various Macedonian phalangites knew that they would have a warm welcome in the enemy army if they surrendered when things went bad. The successor kingdoms were fairly desperate for Macedonian soldiers, so it was fairly common for entire units to surrender on the field and join the enemy army when things went bad. This wasn't the case in the Roman Wars, so might explain why the infantry fights dragged on so much.

- Not a priority, but it could be interesting in the future to include a -1 cohesion penalty when losing impact/melee to an enemy pike to simulate this.

At Cynoscephalae and Pydna, the Romans got pushed back and/or had a hard time penetrating the deployed phalanx, but didn't seem to take a ton of casualties either. My understanding of hand to hand combat in pre-gunpowder times is that most losses occurred during the rout, and not during the melee clash. Exceptions did occur, but during battle casualties were often low compared to what happened when the line broke. No evidence I know of, of a Roman or Pike unit autobreaking in a legion vs phalanx conflict.

Against hoplites, our main piece of evidence is Chaeronea where the Theban Sacred Band fought to the last man even when engaged by pikes and the Companion cavalry.

[Geffalrus]

Let's start simple and work from there...

sounds good Geffalrus! One question, is there a tutorial somewhere on how to use the editor with a mod to make a simple scenario like you describe so I can test this quickly? it is very time consuming to keep using custom battles to test.

Good question, and I wish I knew. Might be one to kick directly to rbodleyscott via private message? Sounds like a great thing to set up before doing any testing.

[Schweetness101]

so I've edited pikes to have the +200 POA on impact and +100 on melee without any degradation from losses.

it is working on impact, with impact being always +200 (displayed still as +100 from pike and +100 from deep pike) and is NOT degrading with losses, so that's what should happen.

Oddly though, in melee, it looks like this:
https://imgur.com/iPlC8j6
where although it still displays as +100 in melee when listing the POAs, that +100 is lost when net POA is calculated, used and displayed. So I will have to figure out what is going on there

never mind I fixed it, I think I see where to change the display as well so it just shows +200 Pike impact and not +100 Pike and +100 Deep pike impact, but on the whole the changes you asked for seem to be working Geffalrus

[desicat]

Let's start simple and work from there...

sounds good Geffalrus! One question, is there a tutorial somewhere on how to use the editor with a mod to make a simple scenario like you describe so I can test this quickly? it is very time consuming to keep using custom battles to test.

Good question, and I wish I knew. Might be one to kick directly to rbodleyscott via private message? Sounds like a great thing to set up before doing any testing.

it is easy after you read the tutorials provided by Paul59 in the Scenario Creation Forum on this page

[desicat]

sounds good Geffalrus! One question, is there a tutorial somewhere on how to use the editor with a mod to make a simple scenario like you describe so I can test this quickly? it is very time consuming to keep using custom battles to test.

Good question, and I wish I knew. Might be one to kick directly to rbodleyscott via private message? Sounds like a great thing to set up before doing any testing.

it is easy after you read the tutorials provided by Paul59 in the Scenario Creation Forum on this page

create a custom scenario, add in the spreadsheet with the new units to that scenario folder, and then they are available to add to the map in the unit selection menu on the left

[Paul59]

Ok great!

one other thing, how can I use the editor to make a simple 1 pike vs 1 other unit battle using a mod just to test changes incrementally?

You will need to create a sub folder called SCENARIOS in your mod folder.

Then you can start the editor and select your mod, and then create scenarios in the normal way. I have a full set of guides in the Scenario Design sub forum, but to just set up a quick basic scenario to test a couple of units is very easy, you will probably be able to work it out yourself!

[Paul59]

I could do with some suggestions now. I've been testing a few things and have realized/need design help on:

1) If I reduce pike unit size to 480 and models to 8 then they automatically become maneuverable, so maybe that is attached to unit size somewhere, or like if size = 480 and not tagged as undrilled then maneuverable, something like that, I'll look around. They also automatically lose ability to go into square, so that must also be tied to unit size. That also brings up, should pikes be maneuverable?

To make a 480 man unit unmanoueverable you would have to change them to Undrilled_Heavy_Foot in the Type column (Column E).

I believe Square forming ability is tied to the ManCount (at least 12), Type, Combat Capability (Offensive Spears, Pikes) and possibly Quality (for Spearmen).

[Schweetness101]

Ok great!

one other thing, how can I use the editor to make a simple 1 pike vs 1 other unit battle using a mod just to test changes incrementally?

You will need to create a sub folder called SCENARIOS in your mod folder.

Then you can start the editor and select your mod, and then create scenarios in the normal way. I have a full set of guides in the Scenario Design sub forum, but to just set up a quick basic scenario to test a couple of units is very easy, you will probably be able to work it out yourself!

ok I think I've made and saved the scenario in the editor but I don't actually know how to start it in play mode lol, how do I start a scenario?

[Schweetness101]

never mind i figured it out lol

https://imgur.com/jbqS6ps

so, here I am testing the new pike mod agasint other pikes, hastati, legions, warband, and phalanx, what should I be looking for?

[Schweetness101]

here are some combat logs if that's useful:

other pikes, hastati, warband, and hoplites
https://imgur.com/a/HOjB4BQ
and legions
https://imgur.com/k7MNh7u
*legions getting a pretty big net poa advantage with pike melee at +200

[pompeytheflatulent]

Pikes not reducing swordsmen POA to 50. My guess is this is part of the original design so that pikes have the same POA advantage over hoplites and legionaries. Reach advantage is reach advantage, doesn't matter if it's 14 feet or 7 feet.

[Schweetness101]

Pikes not reducing swordsmen POA to 50. My guess is this is part of the original design so that pikes have the same POA advantage over hoplites and legionaries. Reach advantage is reach advantage, doesn't matter if it's 14 feet or 7 feet.

so you are saying that offensive spearmen reduce swordsmen to 50 POA in melee (so 100 vs 50 or net +50 for hoplites)

and normally pikes do not because they they have +200 melee POA so swords should keep their +100, but if pikes are reduced to +100 in melee then swords against them should be reduced to +50? that looks to be the case based on this bit of code for impact foot inside of GetMeleePOA():

Code: Select all

// Foot swordsmen POA mitigated to 50 vs steady foot who have offensive spearmen or defensive spearmen capability or are in protective terrain.
if ((GetAttrib(enemy, "Offensive_Spearmen") > 0) || (GetAttrib(enemy, "Defensive_Spearmen") > 0) || (InProtectiveTerrain(enemy, me, enemy_attacking) == 1))
{
	increment = PercentNotSteady(enemy, me, enemy_attacking) / 2;
	increment += 50;
}

I'm not sure what PercentNotSteady() is doing here exactly, but I think its somehow accounting for the fact that only vs steady spears do swordsmen have their melee POA reduced.

So, if I were making these pikes changes then I could change that above code to include pikes something like:

Code: Select all

// Foot swordsmen POA mitigated to 50 vs steady foot who have offensive spearmen or defensive spearmen capability or are in protective terrain.
if ((GetAttrib(enemy, "Offensive_Spearmen") > 0) || (GetAttrib(enemy, "Defensive_Spearmen") > 0) || (InProtectiveTerrain(enemy, me, enemy_attacking) == 1 || (GetAttrib(enemy, "Pike") > 0)))
{
	increment = PercentNotSteady(enemy, me, enemy_attacking) / 2;
	increment += 50;
}

[Geffalrus]

Excellent work so far. My thought about not reducing Swords vs. Pikes is that I'm trying to move away from the current meta where pikes reliably grind down swords in melee. Hoplites do gain more of an advantage vs. swords in this new system, but I'm kind of okay with that. Legions mostly have better morale and armor, so they aren't being slapped around by Hoplites that much. And Hoplites are a bit better equipped for close combat, so as the melee goes on and things get less organized, they theoretically should do better.

Alright, so Marian Legions have a solid advantage in melee. Considering their high level of training and equipment, that's not crazy. Other units are pretty evenly matched, which is okay for now. And that's with 960 men pikes.

How about the next series of tests, all you do is add Above Average and Armored to the existing pikes? Question will be do they start to roflstomp hoplites.......

Edit: Once you're comfortable, maybe we could figure out how to share the mod so that a couple people could see the tests in realtime? No rush, just wandered through my mind.

[Schweetness101]

alright I'll give that a go

looks like in squads.csv there is a BodyArmour column with a number between 50 and 300, and there are both Experience and Elan columns with similar numbers but I'm not sure which accounts for quality or what values to use for what. Hastati/Principes have 100 for armour and 200 for experience and elan so maybe I'll use that because I think they have above average and some armour rating

Yes I will definitely release it! I think I should rewrite the edits to the impact and melee pike sections to be a lot simpler though. Right now there is as lot of old baggage and now unnecessary complexity left over from the 12 and 16 ranks percent stuff. In fact, I think I could just paste in the much simpler offensive spearmen section basically and then just change impact POA to 200 from 100.

[pompeytheflatulent]

I wouldn't call it unnecessary complexity. The complexity is there to ensure that pikes vs spearmen and pikes vs swords have the same POA differential - it doesn't matter if you holding a 9 ft dory or a 2 ft gladius if you can't close with the pikes. Simply copying the offensive spearmen section over the pikes would results in hoplites performing significantly better in melee against pikes compared to swordsmen.