when does fragmented break?

[deadtorius]

had a weird situation that arose at our last game,
Roman units R1, R2 and R3 all 4 packs
Spanish 10 pack S1 and Spanish 6 pack S2

R1 charged S1 and got beaten badly in the melee, and went fragged.
Next Spanish turn S2 charges R2's flank, cant get quite behind the front line fully have about 10mm sticking out front so it does not count as a flank charge. S2 contacts R2 and we turned R2 to face the Spanish since they were in contact with the flank of R2. R2 is now in a column and has its side facing S1 no question about being behind their flank here.

In the melee phase R1 breaks and R2 goes fragged from seeing friends break, during the pursuit S1 slams into the flank of R2.

During the Roman impact R3 charges S2 and ends as an overlap since both S2 and R2 are in column.

Now accoarding to the rules we would resolve that impact during the next impact phase,(Roman Turn)

This was clearly a flank charge which will break R2, so my question is when does this break take place, immediately when the contact occurs during the pursuit of R1, at the beginning of the impact phase of the Roman turn, possibly before any Roman impacts, or after all Roman impacts? When does R3 have to check for seeing friends break, before they make their charge or at the end of the impact phase?

We chose to resolve the charge of R3 and then broke R2 and let it rout.

[DaiSho]

had a weird situation that arose at our last game,
Roman units R1, R2 and R3 all 4 packs
Spanish 10 pack S1 and Spanish 6 pack S2

R1 charged S1 and got beaten badly in the melee, and went fragged.
Next Spanish turn S2 charges R2's flank, cant get quite behind the front line fully have about 10mm sticking out front so it does not count as a flank charge. S2 contacts R2 and we turned R2 to face the Spanish since they were in contact with the flank of R2. R2 is now in a column and has its side facing S1 no question about being behind their flank here.

In the melee phase R1 breaks and R2 goes fragged from seeing friends break, during the pursuit S1 slams into the flank of R2.

During the Roman impact R3 charges S2 and ends as an overlap since both S2 and R2 are in column.

Now accoarding to the rules we would resolve that impact during the next impact phase,(Roman Turn)

This was clearly a flank charge which will break R2, so my question is when does this break take place, immediately when the contact occurs during the pursuit of R1, at the beginning of the impact phase of the Roman turn, possibly before any Roman impacts, or after all Roman impacts? When does R3 have to check for seeing friends break, before they make their charge or at the end of the impact phase?

We chose to resolve the charge of R3 and then broke R2 and let it rout.

It is complex, but I would suggest that they immediately drop a cohesion level but the combat is fought in the next impact phase. As they are now going from Fragged to Broken, they break immediately and so the impact isn't done.

I.e. they break in the pursuit.

Ian

[SirGarnet]

Sounds reasonable. They would break on contact and roll VMD to rout. Unless there is something else to hit, the pursuers roll VMD as well to see if they keep up.

[TERRYFROMSPOKANE]

Since R2 is Fragmented, wouldn't the first relevant step in the new Impact Phase be to have R2 take a Cohesion Test for being charged by S1? Isn't the contact created by S1's pursuit in the last JAP treated as a charge in the current IP? There is nothing in the rule on page 61 that prevents Fragmented units already in Close combat from having to take this test.

Terry

[SirGarnet]

Yes, they would have had to have passed the fragmented test before they were contacted - though you spotted that step was not mentioned in the post.

[Blathergut]

R2 was hit in flank by the pursuit...hit in flank = drop in cohesion level...i think the question was does this drop in cohesion level happen immediately or in the next turn impact phase.

[DaiSho]

Since R2 is Fragmented, wouldn't the first relevant step in the new Impact Phase be to have R2 take a Cohesion Test for being charged by S1? Isn't the contact created by S1's pursuit in the last JAP treated as a charge in the current IP? There is nothing in the rule on page 61 that prevents Fragmented units already in Close combat from having to take this test.

Terry

Except they were 'charged' in the flank so automatically lose a cohesion from fragged to broken before they even test.

Ian

[SirGarnet]

Except they were 'charged' in the flank so automatically lose a cohesion from fragged to broken before they even test.

Ian

The sequence of play is that Fragmented Cohesion Test first. If they rout, then pursuers complete their pursuit move and inflict loss if they contact the routers. If they don't rout, then the pursuers contact them and break them. They initial rout with VMD roll, pursuers start a fresh pursuit with VMD roll and inflict loss if they maintain contact.

Pursuers if lucky rout yet another fragmented BG . . .

[DaiSho]

Except they were 'charged' in the flank so automatically lose a cohesion from fragged to broken before they even test.

Ian

The sequence of play is that Fragmented Cohesion Test first. If they rout, then pursuers complete their pursuit move and inflict loss if they contact the routers. If they don't rout, then the pursuers contact them and break them. They initial rout with VMD roll, pursuers start a fresh pursuit with VMD roll and inflict loss if they maintain contact.

Pursuers if lucky rout yet another fragmented BG . . .

If charged that's the sequence, but it wasn't a charge, it was a pursuit.

Ian

[gozerius]

Since S2 charged R2 but did not qualify as a flank charge, R2 did not have to turn. S2 would have to conform to R2's front in the melee phase. This whole sequence of events is based on a misplayed impact phase. Since R2 does not turn, the pursuit would presumably not lead to R2 being contacted by pursuers. Certainly not in the flank. But without a picture I can't say for sure.

[petedalby]

Next Spanish turn S2 charges R2's flank, cant get quite behind the front line fully have about 10mm sticking out front so it does not count as a flank charge. S2 contacts R2 and we turned R2 to face the Spanish since they were in contact with the flank of R2

Gozerius is correct - R2 should not turn to face S2 if it was not a legal flank charge. You fight the impact then S2 must conform to R2's front.

Pete

[TERRYFROMSPOKANE]

Ian,

I think even though this theoretical move started as a pursuit, it becomes a charge.

From page 108: "If pursuers contact fresh enemy in any phase, this is treated as a charge on the contacted enemy. These must immediately take a Cohesion Test if they are already FRAGMENTED unless.....Combat is adjudicated in the next Impact Phase."

While there is no provision in the Full Turn Sequence for a Fragmented BG taking a CT for being charged in any phase except the Impact Phase, this text seems to indicate that in this particular case, the CT should be taken immediately upon contact in the Melee Phase.

Terry

[Blathergut]

ah...k...always little bits you forget....so they should have tested...if passed, they'd have been hit...then broken...thanks for the help guys

[DaiSho]

Ian,

I think even though this theoretical move started as a pursuit, it becomes a charge.

From page 108: "If pursuers contact fresh enemy in any phase, this is treated as a charge on the contacted enemy. These must immediately take a Cohesion Test if they are already FRAGMENTED unless.....Combat is adjudicated in the next Impact Phase."

While there is no provision in the Full Turn Sequence for a Fragmented BG taking a CT for being charged in any phase except the Impact Phase, this text seems to indicate that in this particular case, the CT should be taken immediately upon contact in the Melee Phase.

Terry

Ahh, ok, I see what you're saying now. I thought you were trying to say that we wait until the next turn and do the impact etc THEN.

So, you're right. The sequence would be (in this case):

1 - Declaration of pursuit, which is effectively a declaration of charge not in the Impact Phase.
2 - Fragged troops roll to stick around (probably hoping they fail), those that fail and the pursuers make VMD's
3 - Those that stick around get charged in the flank and drop to broken, those that don't stick around drop to broken (interesting).
4 - Those that stick around and the pursuers make VMD's

Ian

[SirGarnet]

1 - Declaration of pursuit, which is effectively a declaration of charge not in the Impact Phase.

Declaration if pursuers have a choice as to where they will go.

2 - Fragged troops roll to stick around (probably hoping they fail), those that fail and the pursuers make VMD's.
3 - Those that stick around get charged in the flank and drop to broken, those that don't stick around drop to broken (interesting).
4 - Those that stick around and the pursuers make VMD's

Reading this and looking at the language on page 108 prescribing testing after contact in the full light of day and coffee, I think it's

2 - Pursuers move their pursuit move based on VMD.
3 - They contact the target in the flank. If it was already routed, they remove a base as usual and their pursuit is done.
4 - If not already broken, the target drops a cohesion level and is in close combat scheduled to be resolved in Impact.
5 - If fragmented (including that drop) then the target rolls a cohesion test.
6 - If it is now broken, it makes an initial rout immediately away from the pursuers, rolling VMD, and the pursuers make an initial pursuit (subject to usual exceptions on p101), rolling VMD for a new pursuit move.
7 - If it is not broken, the combat is resolved as a flank charge in Impact.

[DaiSho]

1 - Declaration of pursuit, which is effectively a declaration of charge not in the Impact Phase.

Declaration if pursuers have a choice as to where they will go.

2 - Fragged troops roll to stick around (probably hoping they fail), those that fail and the pursuers make VMD's.
3 - Those that stick around get charged in the flank and drop to broken, those that don't stick around drop to broken (interesting).
4 - Those that stick around and the pursuers make VMD's

Reading this and looking at the language on page 108 prescribing testing after contact in the full light of day and coffee, I think it's

2 - Pursuers move their pursuit move based on VMD.
3 - They contact the target in the flank. If it was already routed, they remove a base as usual and their pursuit is done.
4 - If not already broken, the target drops a cohesion level and is in close combat scheduled to be resolved in Impact.
5 - If fragmented (including that drop) then the target rolls a cohesion test.
6 - If it is now broken, it makes an initial rout immediately away from the pursuers, rolling VMD, and the pursuers make an initial pursuit (subject to usual exceptions on p101), rolling VMD for a new pursuit move.
7 - If it is not broken, the combat is resolved as a flank charge in Impact.

Disagree. Read Terry's post for clarrification as to why.

Ian

[SirGarnet]

Ian

I'm suggesting it is better at representing the tactical plight of the target, but as the rules say both the loss and the test happen "immediately" on contact the rules could go two ways.

1. If not already fragmented before contact they don't test; they just take the cohesion loss at contact and become fragmented for combat. If fragmented already, they must skip the test because the BG is already routed before dice are thrown. So no test in either case.

2. They were disrupted before contact and are fragmented by cohesion loss on contact, so they test as fragmented.

Mike

[DaiSho]

Ian

2. They were disrupted before contact and are fragmented by cohesion loss on contact, so they test as fragmented.

Mike

Mike, unless I'm mis-reading what you're saying I disagree.

Again, I may be mis-reading what you're saying, but it sounds like you're saying:

Disrupted troops who are pursued into the flank go fragmented for being contacted in the flank (agreed) and then test for being charged whilst fragmented.

I disagree with this. You test for being charged (disrupted don't have to test for being charged and so automatically pass). The disrupted guys are now contacted in the flank and drop a cohesion level. They then fight (and probably lose) at double disadvantaged and losing 1 dice per 2.

Ian

[SirGarnet]

I think you are missing that this is not a charge sequence with a test before chargers move, but a test only prompted by being contacted by the pursuers.

so for target already disrupted by friends routing, it's between simultaneous

Contact -----> Immediate CT if already Fragmented.
Contact -----> Immediate Fragmentation.

Contact -----> Immediate Fragmentation.
Contact -----> Immediate CT if already Fragmented.

I can see it either way, but not for the reason you stated.

[DaiSho]

I think you are missing that this is not a charge sequence with a test before chargers move, but a test only prompted by being contacted by the pursuers.

It's treated as a charge thus you take your mind out of the sequence for a second and pretend it's a charge. Then do all your moves. It occurs at the time of pursuit, but it's treated as a charge.

Ian