Impact support shooting

[stenic]

Two questions cam up last week that I forgot to post.

1) Does impact shooting count the dice for the target in the same manner as shooting rather than each BG individualy?

For example

] is space
kkkk is enemy knight BG charging Roman legionary BGs aa & xx, bb & yy and cc & zz. xx, yy and zz are LF supprting respective HF

]]kkkk
aabbcc
aabbcc
xxyyzz

aa overlaps kkkk by one base to the left and cc ditto to the right.

Impact LF shooting dice lose 1 per 2 so bb only gets 1 dice, but do aa and cc combine to produce 1 dice or get 1 each?


2) Shooring in impact eligibilty. Do only those specified as supporting in the lists get the impact support shooting dice or do any in the second rank?

Thanks,

Steve P

[hammy]

Right so the question is if there are two BGs each with a single base of LF providing support shooting at impact do they get one dice or two?

If so my immediate answer is two as I am fairly confident that dice at impact and in melee are calculated on a BG by BG basis.

I will have a read and see what I can find.

[WhiteKnight]

In your example, kkkk will have two LF bases firing against it in the impact phase.

In general, if an LF/MF base with shooting ability is positionned behind a HF/MF base fighting in the impact phase and they are part of the same BG, that base adds a die to the impact. The no of dice will be reduced by one per two if the supporting shooters are LF, which if armed with Bow, may also support from a third rank position.

Martin

[hammy]

In your example, kkkk will have two LF bases firing against it in the impact phase.

In general, if an LF/MF base with shooting ability is positionned behind a HF/MF base fighting in the impact phase and they are part of the same BG, that base adds a die to the impact. The no of dice will be reduced by one per two if the supporting shooters are LF, which if armed with Bow, may also support from a third rank position.

Martin

But support shooting is part of the impact, not a distinct additional shooting phase. The number of dice is part of the impact combat mechanism not the shooting one. Support shooting dice use shooting POAs (minus 1 for impact) but that is the only part of the shooting rules that apply.

The area I am not so sure about is how to treat 2 dice resulting from LF in two different BGs in the same impact.

Checks rules..... OK, here we go. Looing at Allocating combat dice on P93 there are a number of bullet points, only one refers to combining dice from more than one BG before reducing them and that specifically relates to shooting. IMO support shooting is part of the imapct phase, uses impact phase dice allocation and as we know can be affected by a commander which normal shooting cannot.

I therefore stand by my initial view that the two end BGs of Romans would get 1 support dice each.

[petedalby]

I therefore stand by my initial view that the two end BGs of Romans would get 1 support dice each.

I would agree - so the Roman gets 3 support shooting dice in total, 1 for each BG, each adjusted for quality and / or Commanders.

Pete

[SirGarnet]

I figures mos' simple folks a'reckoned that shootin' be shootin'.

[stenic]

Hammy, yes, your (and every one elses) understanding of question 1 is correct.

Steve P

[SirGarnet]

Looing at Allocating combat dice on P93 there are a number of bullet points, only one refers to combining dice from more than one BG before reducing them and that specifically relates to shooting. IMO support shooting is part of the imapct phase, uses impact phase dice allocation and as we know can be affected by a commander which normal shooting cannot.

I therefore stand by my initial view that the two end BGs of Romans would get 1 support dice each.

P93 unfortunately just talks about shooting rather than "non-support shooting" - and it's logical to think that shooting means shooting, so that cuts against your argument.

However, I think what you were recollecting was the answer at the start of p99 which indeed says for support shooting "Light foot lose 1 dice per 2 dice as normal, so get 1 dice per 2 supporting bases, rounded up." These are treated as close combat hits as you indicate.

[marioslaz]

Looing at Allocating combat dice on P93 there are a number of bullet points, only one refers to combining dice from more than one BG before reducing them and that specifically relates to shooting. IMO support shooting is part of the imapct phase, uses impact phase dice allocation and as we know can be affected by a commander which normal shooting cannot.

I therefore stand by my initial view that the two end BGs of Romans would get 1 support dice each.

P93 unfortunately just talks about shooting rather than "non-support shooting" - and it's logical to think that shooting means shooting, so that cuts against your argument.

However, I think what you were recollecting was the answer at the start of p99 which indeed says for support shooting "Light foot lose 1 dice per 2 dice as normal, so get 1 dice per 2 supporting bases, rounded up." These are treated as close combat hits as you indicate.

IMO we must read support shooting treated at p98. The 5th bullet state: "[...] LF loose 1 dice per 2 dice as normal so get 1 dice per 2 supporting bases [...]" I think this means in this case 2 support dice, not 3. The rule talk about bases, not BG, so IMO you round up all bases which are fighting against the same target.
Question 2: support shoot can be made only when shooter are part of the BG. You cannot deploy a shooter BG behind a HF BG and use support shooting.

[rogerg]

A disrupted BG loses combat dice at impact as a BG not per target. The loss of shooting dice should presumably be applied similarly per BG not per enemy in contact with it. If the impact combat is two bases wide versus two different mounted enemy then the one dice of LF shooting is presumably allocated by player choice.

[grahambriggs]

In your example, kkkk will have two LF bases firing against it in the impact phase.

In general, if an LF/MF base with shooting ability is positionned behind a HF/MF base fighting in the impact phase and they are part of the same BG, that base adds a die to the impact. The no of dice will be reduced by one per two if the supporting shooters are LF, which if armed with Bow, may also support from a third rank position.

Martin

But support shooting is part of the impact, not a distinct additional shooting phase. The number of dice is part of the impact combat mechanism not the shooting one. Support shooting dice use shooting POAs (minus 1 for impact) but that is the only part of the shooting rules that apply.

The area I am not so sure about is how to treat 2 dice resulting from LF in two different BGs in the same impact.

Checks rules..... OK, here we go. Looing at Allocating combat dice on P93 there are a number of bullet points, only one refers to combining dice from more than one BG before reducing them and that specifically relates to shooting. IMO support shooting is part of the imapct phase, uses impact phase dice allocation and as we know can be affected by a commander which normal shooting cannot.

I therefore stand by my initial view that the two end BGs of Romans would get 1 support dice each.

I think the relevant wording here is that at the top of page 99: "light foot lose 1 dice per 2 dice as normal, so get 1 dice per 2 supporting bases, rounded up". There are four support dice initially, then you lose 1 per 2. So you have two left. i.e. I don't think the losing dice thing is per battlegroup, it's just per dice.

[WhiteKnight]

There are clearly two opinions here based on different readings of different parts of the rulebook. I agree with the last post by graham briggs. I think the only resolution will be a definitive ruling as to what was intended from the rule author team.

Martin

[SirGarnet]

Shooting is a one-way process directed against a target, so partial extra dice can be cumulated. Close combat is always a BG vs. BG affair each on its own dice, so, no, the rules are not going to redistribute combat dice away from one BG based on the number of combat dice that another BG has.

[marioslaz]

Shooting is a one-way process directed against a target, so partial extra dice can be cumulated. Close combat is always a BG vs. BG affair each on its own dice, so, no, the rules are not going to redistribute combat dice away from one BG based on the number of combat dice that another BG has.

I don't understand what you mean. In the case under examination we have one BG against 3 BGs. Why should we consider bases reduction just BG per BG? And if even did this, from what perspective should we consider a BG vs BG affair?
Anyway, support shooting is a particular kind of shooting, not of close combat. Support shooting is made under impact, but it has its own chapter which describe how it must be performed. Support shooting is a one-way process, to use your terminology, because a BG get extra dice other those for impact, and these extra dice use POA of shooting.

[shall]

First and foremost ... support shooting is not part of shooting. Shooting all occurs in that phase. This is a boost on impact and uses the impact rules from that section. Maybe if we called is support fire from rear ranks instead there would be less confusions.

You do it by BG as per impact. This is because on page 98 you have "support shooters must be of the same stationary battlegroup" and all reductions follow from there i,e GBs page 99 bit is after that statement.

I think you need it that way (dredging memory) because in combat we actually compare dice for who wins and loses, when in shooting you do not. So if you had the extra dice say, and it hits, which BG has caused it when you get to deciding winners and losers. Hence for combat it is always by BG so your BG either has an extra dice, or it doesn't.

So its a technical reason relating to other parts of the rules really rather than a perfect representation. Of course it is quite reasonable to a rgue that there are 2 dice worth of support and it deserves one more but not worth the knock on effects when looked at pragmatically.

So in the example above just the 2 Ps and 1 extra dice for middle BG the way I play it.

Si

[WhiteKnight]

Ta for that Simon...so I was wrong and in impact support shooting in the case cited at the beginning of this thread, there are 3 support shooting dice from the 4 LF supporting because each BG is treated separately and each contibutes one die.

Martin

[stenic]

Thanks Si, clears that up nicely.

Although in the case in point it would not have helped I don't think as I got tonked anyway

Steve P

[marioslaz]

I apologize because I made a blunder! I took a specific case (3 BGs of same troop type) for a general case. You of course have reason and doing in a different way would bring to odd situations when BGs in line are not of same troop type. I still have a curiosity about loosing dice, but I will post in a new thread to avoid confusion.