Cavalry fleeing from flank charge

[Cunningcairn]

I charged a superior armoured cavalry unit in the flank (charge started behind the flank) with a superior armoured lancer and cav stood its ground disrupting and recoiling the lancer in the process. The lancer had a charge POA of 100 and the cav had a height advantage of 25 and both units were in good going at all times. I've never seen this before and thought cav would always flee a flank charge from non-lights. Has this happened to anyone else?

[pompeytheflatulent]

Did the lancers charge across a stream or rough ground?

[Cunningcairn]

Did the lancers charge across a stream or rough ground?

No as I said they were in good going at all times.

[pompeytheflatulent]

What were the combat odds given in the pop-up? And did you forget your pre-battle sacrifices to Tzeentch?

[Paul59]

Had the cavalry already evaded that turn?

[Athos1660]

I guess thre are two questions in OP :
1) Can a superior armoured cavalry unit defeat flanking superior armoured lancers ? Does Cohesion drop apply in this case ?
2) Would cavalry always flee a flank charge from non-light cavalry ?

I don't know the balance of strength between those two units both during the charge and the melee (however, the superior armoured cavalry is a good one and they had a height advantage of +25 POA), but here are my first thought :

1) If I am not mistaken, this is a case without cohesion drop and the impact combat is not fought on a guaranteed net POA of +200 to the flank attackers.

Manual, p. 74 : "If the flank-charged unit was neither already in close combat, nor evaded this turn, or one of the above exceptions applies (NB : which do not refer to non-light cavalry charged by non-light cavalry), the unit does not drop a cohesion level. The flank chargers instead get a guaranteed net POA of +50 if their non-flanking net POA would be less than +50."

As for the melee phase, I don't have the data of the strength balance between the two units (%Win, %Lose).

However, what happened to you seems to be a matter a (bad) luck. This day, the enemy superior armoured cavalry was better (a matter of dice).

2) No fleeing is automatic.

Manual, p. 73 : "(...) non-lancer cavalry (...) can attempt to evade charges. The AI decides for the (player or AI) unit whether it will evade, based on its chance of winning the combat and its chance of successfully getting away."

Has this happened to me? I don't remember but it does not surprise me much.

(edit)
I've just checked it, the height advantage +25 POA correspond to a "height differential of 75 or less" (p. 90).
Even when flanking, charging a cavalry unit with a height differential as high as 75 seems quite daring, in the absolute

[pompeytheflatulent]

I think I managed to recreate this one in hotseat. Strangely the impact POA lists 'flank charge +50' and nothing else, no lance vs light spear, no height difference, resulting in a 24% win 5% loss chance. So I assume the culprit here is that the OP forgot his pre-battle sacrifices to Tzeentch, rolled that 5% loss, and failed the cohesion check.

Screen_00000006.jpg (718.21 KiB) Viewed 2880 times

Edit: Oh yea the light spear cav stood because it wins in melee.

[Athos1660]

... and the height advantage of +25 PoA of the enemy cavalry appears here :

[rbodleyscott]

I think I managed to recreate this one in hotseat. Strangely the impact POA lists 'flank charge +50' and nothing else, no lance vs light spear, no height difference.

Non-autodrop flank charge gets (at least) +50 net POA regardless of other POAs that would normally apply. (Unless the net POA would be higher than +50 if it wasn't a flank charge). So it doesn't report all of the POAs, it just reports Flank/Rear Attack and whatever the net POA is.

If the cavalry had been horse archers rather than light spear cavalry, it would (I think) have reported Flank/Rear Attack: +75 POA. (100 POA for lancers - 25 for enemy uphill)

[pompeytheflatulent]

Non-disrupting flank charge gets (at least) +50 net POA regardless of other POAs that would normally apply. (Unless the net POA would be higher than +50 if it wasn't a flank charge). So it doesn't report all of the POAs, it just reports Flank/Rear Attack and whatever the net POA is.

If the cavalry had been horse archers rather than light spear cavalry, it would (I think) have reported Flank/Rear Attack: +75 POA. (100 POA for lancers - 25 for enemy uphill)

But shouldn't this case more accurately be: +50 flank charge +50 for lance vs light spear -25 for charging uphill = +75 POA?

[pompeytheflatulent]

Now that I think about it, with the way its currently calculated, equal quality lancers charging un-engaged light spear cavalry on flat ground would have a +50 POA regardless of whether it charged frontally or from the flank. That doesn't seem right.

[Cunningcairn]

Had the cavalry already evaded that turn?

No it had not moved at all.

[Cunningcairn]

I guess thre are two questions in OP :
1) Can a superior armoured cavalry unit defeat flanking superior armoured lancers ? Does Cohesion drop apply in this case ?
2) Would cavalry always flee a flank charge from non-light cavalry ?

I don't know the balance of strength between those two units both during the charge and the melee (however, the superior armoured cavalry is a good one and they had a height advantage of +25 POA), but here are my first thought :

1) If I am not mistaken, this is a case without cohesion drop and the impact combat is not fought on a guaranteed net POA of +200 to the flank attackers.

Manual, p. 74 : "If the flank-charged unit was neither already in close combat, nor evaded this turn, or one of the above exceptions applies (NB : which do not refer to non-light cavalry charged by non-light cavalry), the unit does not drop a cohesion level. The flank chargers instead get a guaranteed net POA of +50 if their non-flanking net POA would be less than +50."

As for the melee phase, I don't have the data of the strength balance between the two units (%Win, %Lose).

However, what happened to you seems to be a matter a (bad) luck. This day, the enemy superior armoured cavalry was better (a matter of dice).

2) No fleeing is automatic.

Manual, p. 73 : "(...) non-lancer cavalry (...) can attempt to evade charges. The AI decides for the (player or AI) unit whether it will evade, based on its chance of winning the combat and its chance of successfully getting away."

Has this happened to me? I don't remember but it does not surprise me much.

(edit)
I've just checked it, the height advantage +25 POA correspond to a "height differential of 75 or less" (p. 90).
Even when flanking, charging a cavalry unit with a height differential as high as 75 seems quite daring, in the absolute

Thanks for the good analysis. The lancer was just within charge reach so the cavalry was unlikely to get caught if it evaded.

[Cunningcairn]

Now that I think about it, with the way its currently calculated, equal quality lancers charging un-engaged light spear cavalry on flat ground would have a +50 POA regardless of whether it charged frontally or from the flank. That doesn't seem right.

I'm also surprised there is such a small advantage. You were correct earlier I should have made some sacrifices as a 5% chance of losing happens at least 50% of the time

[rbodleyscott]

Non-disrupting flank charge gets (at least) +50 net POA regardless of other POAs that would normally apply. (Unless the net POA would be higher than +50 if it wasn't a flank charge). So it doesn't report all of the POAs, it just reports Flank/Rear Attack and whatever the net POA is.

If the cavalry had been horse archers rather than light spear cavalry, it would (I think) have reported Flank/Rear Attack: +75 POA. (100 POA for lancers - 25 for enemy uphill)

But shouldn't this case more accurately be: +50 flank charge +50 for lance vs light spear -25 for charging uphill = +75 POA?

No, because the +50 for a flank charge is regardless of POAs, and is only superceded if the non-flank net POA would be higher. It isn't cumulative.

[rbodleyscott]

Now that I think about it, with the way its currently calculated, equal quality lancers charging un-engaged light spear cavalry on flat ground would have a +50 POA regardless of whether it charged frontally or from the flank. That doesn't seem right.

Flank charges are only supposed to be dangerous if the flanked unit is already in close combat. This is WAD.

[Paul59]

I have just set up a test scenario with the conditions described; Armoured Light Spear Cavalry on a 25 height hill, charged in flank from distance by an Armoured Superior Lancer unit. There are 5 sets of units in the scenario:



I ran the test twice, so 10 charges on the flank. In every one the Armoured Light Spear Cavalry evaded;





So either the cavalry standing it's ground is a highly unlikely event and the OP was just extremely unlucky, or there was something else stopping the Cavalry from evading, or there was something else about the matchup (that we don't know about) that made evading not necessary.

[pompeytheflatulent]

So either the cavalry standing it's ground is a highly unlikely event and the OP was just extremely unlucky, or there was something else stopping the Cavalry from evading, or there was something else about the matchup (that we don't know about) that made evading not necessary.

All of the light spear cavalry are withing the charge reach of 2 or 3 lancers. I've seen superior armored horse archers sitting behind rough ground run from a frontal charge by average horse archers, simply because there was another light spear horse within charge reach.

[rbodleyscott]

So either the cavalry standing it's ground is a highly unlikely event and the OP was just extremely unlucky, or there was something else stopping the Cavalry from evading, or there was something else about the matchup (that we don't know about) that made evading not necessary.

All of the light spear cavalry are withing the charge reach of 2 or 3 lancers. I've seen superior armored horse archers sitting behind rough ground run from a frontal charge by average horse archers, simply because there was another light spear horse within charge reach.

Yes, the presence of other potential chargers is taken into account in the decision to evade.

[Paul59]

So either the cavalry standing it's ground is a highly unlikely event and the OP was just extremely unlucky, or there was something else stopping the Cavalry from evading, or there was something else about the matchup (that we don't know about) that made evading not necessary.

All of the light spear cavalry are withing the charge reach of 2 or 3 lancers. I've seen superior armored horse archers sitting behind rough ground run from a frontal charge by average horse archers, simply because there was another light spear horse within charge reach.

Right, let me spread the buggers out a bit then.