anti-tanks

[Zekedia222]

I loved Morning Sun, as well as Rising Sun to a lesser extent. I’m indifferent about Japan’s warcrimes at this point. I’ve seen them ignored so much that I honestly can’t be bothered to raise my hand and explain why Japan was far worse than the Nazis.

But yeah Morning Sun: Would very strongly recommend. Its completely different, with you just chewing through waves of infantry.
I have to disagree with US Marines to an extent. It turns into what Gunny was complaining about with US Pacific.

[Igor1941]

I loved Morning Sun, as well as Rising Sun to a lesser extent. I’m indifferent about Japan’s warcrimes at this point. I’ve seen them ignored so much that I honestly can’t be bothered to raise my hand and explain why Japan was far worse than the Nazis.

But yeah Morning Sun: Would very strongly recommend. Its completely different, with you just chewing through waves of infantry.
I have to disagree with US Marines to an extent. It turns into what Gunny was complaining about with US Pacific.

Unit 731
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

[Zekedia222]

Yes, I know. Rape of Nanking, genocide of 15 million Chinese civilians. Massacres of POWs and Civilians, Unit 731 and Unit 1648, Cherry Blossoms at night. On and on. I’ve researched this for 8 and a half years now. My father, and his father before him served in the Pacific Theatre, Korea, and Vietnam. Again, I’ve read and seen enough about it that its not shocking to me anymore. It is disgusting, but I can get over that to play a game.

[timberwolf15]

For some sick reason I could care less what the Japs did to the Chinese even though it was back then during WWII have this view .. probably because of the US helping the Chinese during WWII and then they got involved with Korea and the Chinese were horrendous toward us they invaded Korea and steam rolled us back then after awhile everything ended up exactly where it started at the 98th parallel ???

There is imo a fantastic book to read ... besides the Bible .. its well, I think he wrote two books "The making of a soldier" by Herbert and "Soldier" by Herbert - Soldier has a lot more pages.

[dks]

I am sure glad this thread went from anti-tanks to a political thread....

will be sometime before I feel free to discuss the mechanics of the (game) Order of Battle: World War II

[Zekedia222]

The Chinese were bad, but the Japanese infinitely worse. The Chinese committed many warcrimes, but they did nothing on the scale of concentrated genocide the Japanese perpetrated. I’ll drop it, but if you want to know the extent, I’d be willing to tell.
Also remember, you are completely misguided. The China we aided was the ones the Communists kicked to Taiwan. Its foolish to say that all the Chinese were the same. In the end, the people we hated was the government, and the higher-ups. The average woman, of which many tens to hundreds of thousands were raped by IJA, couldn’t care less. The average man, many millions of which were killed, just went on about his business, until KMT or CCP or warlords conscripted him.

[timberwolf15]

dks back to Anti Tanks someday consider playing the Custom "Campaign Winter War 1939" ???
If you do not use AT in this Campaign you get annihilated and wish you were never born. ....

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[Zekedia222]

dks back to Anti Tanks someday consider playing the Custom "Campaign Winter War 1939" ???
If you do not use AT in this Campaign you get annihilated and wish you were never born...

Yup. Gotta agree there.

[prestidigitation]

For some sick reason I could care less what the Japs did to the Chinese even though it was back then during WWII have this view .. probably because of the US helping the Chinese during WWII and then they got involved with Korea and the Chinese were horrendous toward us they invaded Korea and steam rolled us back then after awhile everything ended up exactly where it started at the 98th parallel ???

The US helped Nationalist China (very different than the communist People's Republic of China) in the WW2, but in a very limited way. No help was provided to the People's Republic of China, who later supported the North Koreans against the US. Keep in mind that Nat China had been fighting for 6 long, bloody and terribly hard years before US support kicked off in 42, and that for much of that time Western powers had played second fiddle to the USSR in providing support.

Claire Chennault was a decent enough guy, but his bombing raids caused incredibly bloody Japanese reprisals.

Stilwell by contrast was a racist incompetent and worse than useless, literally wandering off to India with a sizeable chunk of Chiang's army (worse yet the best trained bits) and then stealing much of the US supplies earmarked for China.

Yet even without much in the way of support and allied indifference and awful suffering, the Nationalist Chinese tied up the bulk of the Japanese army for 9 years. And keep in mind that the US didn't exactly have a spotless rep in China. The US was very much part of the imperial presence in China prior to the Japanese invasion. It wasn't nearly so bad as the British had been, but it also wasn't blameless.

When Nationalist China fell after the end of the war it was in large part because the US did not get involved on their side and did not do any of the things they did in Europe to prevent a communist overthrow. In France, Italy and UK the US ran PR and covert ops campaigns to combat communist influence. In China the US was largely indifferent and uninvolved.

When Korea was invaded, it was by the North Koreans. The only reason the Chinese got involved is that MacArthur ignored warnings from Truman, the intelligence apparatus of the US, the Chinese and the Soviets to race up to the Yalu river on the very border of China. The PRC then got directly involved and forced him back to the 38th parallel using their own extremely creative method of war that allowed an all infantry force to outfight a mechanized one with air superiority. MacArthur then demanded the right to extend the war into China and wanted access to nuclear weapons to do so. Since this was obviously way beyond acceptable Truman sacked him.

So if you'd like to blame anyone for the Chinese involvement in the Korean War and the hard fighting that ensued, blame MacArthur and blame US indifference to the fate of Chiang Kai-Shek in the aftermath of WW2. Had the US rescued him, North Korea would never have invaded South Korea.

[Zekedia222]

The US was very much part of the imperial presence in China prior to the Japanese invasion. It wasn't nearly so bad as the British had been, but it also wasn't blameless.

What imperial presence did we have, besides the Yangtze patrol?

And in the end, US support would mean little, so long as the Soviet Union still got North Korea. If the US support the KMT, the Soviet Union would inevitably do the same for the CCP.

[timberwolf15]

So China invaded because Truman did not heed their warnings then we need to warn Mexico as we have to stop the immigrant caravans, the drugs from pouring in, the illegals from filtering across as we have warned them over and over and since they have not corrected this then we should just invade Mexico basically the same thing as the Chinese did to us they gave us a warning we stayed off of their soil but they gave us a warning. Albiet we had an army on their border but Mexico does not prevent the incursions.

[prestidigitation]

The US was very much part of the imperial presence in China prior to the Japanese invasion. It wasn't nearly so bad as the British had been, but it also wasn't blameless.

What imperial presence did we have, besides the Yangtze patrol?

And in the end, US support would mean little, so long as the Soviet Union still got North Korea. If the US support the KMT, the Soviet Union would inevitably do the same for the CCP.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2% ... hina_Trade

The chief benefit of US imperialism in pre-Republican China was extra territoriality, meaning US nationals could not be tried under Chinese courts. Imagine, if you will, foreign nationals committing crimes on US soil and then having their crimes dismissed by foreign courts. Not great! The US also participated in a number of invasions alongside the other imperial powers. There were also concessions and various trade rights that were slanted in favor of the US.

Again, not as brutal or exploitative as the British imperial presence in China which is notorious to this day!

As far as US support for Nationalist China, I very much doubt the SU would have openly supported any nation against the US prior to developing the bomb. Soviets developed the bomb in '49, supported the invasion by North Korea in '50. Not a hard to grasp timeline!

So China invaded because Truman did not heed their warnings then we need to warn Mexico as we have to stop the immigrant caravans, the drugs from pouring in, the illegals from filtering across as we have warned them over and over and since they have not corrected this then we should just invade Mexico basically the same thing as the Chinese did to us they gave us a warning we stayed off of their soil but they gave us a warning. Albiet we had an army on their border but Mexico does not prevent the incursions.

??? I am having trouble understanding what relevance if any this has to this thread or the current discussion.

The US Army under MacArthur violated every red line the People's Republic of China drew in North Korea and was even openly considering an invasion of China. A sovereign nation that does not enforce its red lines is guaranteed to lose prestige and the ability to deter hostile actions. Given the scenario, the only shock is that the PRC showed as much forbearance as it did in the matter.

I have no idea what this has to do with Mexico, a nation that has never once threatened military action against the US except when defending against US aggression in the 19th century. Immigrants seeking to legally claim asylum have nothing in common with an army actively seeking to invade a foreign country? And I'm not sure why I have to explain that?

As far as drugs, well, they wouldn't be coming into this country if a whole heck of a lot of Americans didn't want them.

[Zekedia222]

Gunny, please keep political policy or discussion away from the forums. I’ve seen other forums delve into brawls from offhand comments. Thank you.

[kondi754]

It seems to me that Chinese Communists won the civil war (precisely) because of the USA withdrew from supporting Kuomintang, alienated to Chang-Kai-shek by the level of corruption into his administration, feigning warfare against the Japanese, internal divisions and hostility with other Chinese warlords etc.

[timberwolf15]

So these two guys go over to a bridge

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