Thoughts on Encirclement and Retreat

[lloydster4]

Encirclement is relatively easy to achieve

This is true, but it's significantly harder to encircle a unit AND kill/suppress all of its fighting strength (to force retreat). Unless a unit is extremely vulnerable or already damaged, you need a lot of firepower to accomplish this. At minimum, 2-3 effective attacks in a single turn (usually some combination of artillery, air, and direct assault). For particularly robust units, like Heavy Tanks, it might be 4-6 attacks before you've neutralized it enough to force a retreat.

Also, you keep using the word "envelopment" to mean "completely surrounded," and that is not the meaning of that word in a military context. The military word for "completely surrounded" is "encirclement".

[Hemi]

Encirclement is relatively easy to achieve

This is true, but it's significantly harder to encircle a unit AND kill/suppress all of its fighting strength (to force retreat). Unless a unit is extremely vulnerable or already damaged, you need a lot of firepower to accomplish this. At minimum, 2-3 effective attacks in a single turn (usually some combination of artillery, air, and direct assault). For particularly robust units, like Heavy Tanks, it might be 4-6 attacks before you've neutralized it enough to force a retreat.

Also, you keep using the word "envelopment" to mean "completely surrounded," and that is not the meaning of that word in a military context. The military word for "completely surrounded" is "encirclement".

envelopment An offensive maneuver in which the main attacking force passes around or over the enemy's principal defensive positions to secure objectives to the enemy's rear. See also turning movement (US DoD)

I will now out now

[Mojko]

I already reported on this issue. My opinion is as follows:

- enemy unit breaking out of encirclement during enemy turn is fine as they have to spend move action
- enemy unit retreating out of encirclement during player's turn as a consequence of being attacked is not fine

I was given balance reason why this is the case which I understand. Basically if the retreat out of encirclement is not possible the encirclement mechanic becomes too powerful. That's all fine but I still think the main issue is communicating this to the player via the UI.

Maybe the feature to prevent retreat our of encirclement could become part of the Deadly grasp commander trait and increasing the trait cost by 1?

[Matyna]

I already reported on this issue. My opinion is as follows:

- enemy unit breaking out of encirclement during enemy turn is fine as they have to spend move action
- enemy unit retreating out of encirclement during player's turn as a consequence of being attacked is not fine

I was given balance reason why this is the case which I understand. Basically if the retreat out of encirclement is not possible the encirclement mechanic becomes too powerful. That's all fine but I still think the main issue is communicating this to the player via the UI.

Maybe the feature to prevent retreat our of encirclement could become part of the Deadly grasp commander trait and increasing the trait cost by 1?

There is heroes that have traits like "Attacked unit will lose all of its moving points" and "Any damage to enemy unit force ut to retreat" I got bolt of them, they are really powerful is used on one unit. I dont think retreat needs to be redone, because if it was done like you want, that if they are Encircled and when attacked they just surrender, it would be too powerfull.

[lloydster4]

I was given balance reason why this is the case which I understand. Basically if the retreat out of encirclement is not possible the encirclement mechanic becomes too powerful. That's all fine but I still think the main issue is communicating this to the player via the UI.

I know it's not practical that the unit be forced to surrender, but I really wish there was SOME penalty. Anything.

As it is, there's just no good reason to attack an encircled unit unless you can kill it on the same turn. I can't let a strong enemy unit escape my ZoC and fully recover from suppression.

[Matyna]

I was given balance reason why this is the case which I understand. Basically if the retreat out of encirclement is not possible the encirclement mechanic becomes too powerful. That's all fine but I still think the main issue is communicating this to the player via the UI.

I know it's not practical that the unit be forced to surrender, but I really wish there was SOME penalty. Anything.

As it is, there's just no good reason to attack an encircled unit unless you can kill it on the same turn. I can't let a strong enemy unit escape my ZoC and fully recover from suppression.

I personaly never had problem with that i have tu surround unit with my units soo he cant escape and i can get equipment, especialy when you can split them, then you need just 3 units that can merge instantly after attack.

[Retributarr]

I was given balance reason why this is the case which I understand. Basically if the retreat out of encirclement is not possible the encirclement mechanic becomes too powerful. That's all fine but I still think the main issue is communicating this to the player via the UI.

I know it's not practical that the unit be forced to surrender, but I really wish there was SOME penalty. Anything.

As it is, there's just no good reason to attack an encircled unit unless you can kill it on the same turn. I can't let a strong enemy unit escape my ZoC and fully recover from suppression.

"loydster4:" Well said!... well done!... with delivering a concise/precise stab at the 'Crux' of the heart of the issue!.

No one else has said/stated it better!.

[lloydster4]

I personaly never had problem with that i have tu surround unit with my units soo he cant escape and i can get equipment, especialy when you can split them, then you need just 3 units that can merge instantly after attack.

This is a fair point. Just to be clear: Do you mean that I can split a unit, attack, and then merge it again all on the same turn? I didn't realize the system was that flexible.

[Matyna]

I personaly never had problem with that i have tu surround unit with my units soo he cant escape and i can get equipment, especialy when you can split them, then you need just 3 units that can merge instantly after attack.

This is a fair point. Just to be clear: Do you mean that I can split a unit, attack, and then merge it again all on the same turn? I didn't realize the system was that flexible.

Yes you can, you can even use that unit to attack another if it still have its attack move.

[lloydster4]

Yes you can, you can even use that unit to attack another if it still have its attack move.

How many core slots do you usually keep open for splits? Or do you prefer to use Flexible Command?

[Matyna]

Yes you can, you can even use that unit to attack another if it still have its attack move.

How many core slots do you usually keep open for splits? Or do you prefer to use Flexible Command?

Iirc split takes you 1 core. But for spliting i prefer to use aux forces, as i always take that trait at start of campaign. But if you have some 3 non used cores, it should be enough. Or you can have Generals trait that dont take core at all when spliting.