BrucErik CSD Studio

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CoolDTA
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Re: BrucErik CSD Studio

Post by CoolDTA »

bru888 wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:40 am French and Spanish are one thing, but I would venture to guess that 99 out of 100 of us will not know the difference when it comes to Finnish.
That is probably correct. :lol:
bru888 wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:40 am
CoolDTA wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:10 pm Quick recap: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila.
Interesting. I might be able to work that in as a campaign event, between a couple of episodes. Erik, please check back here; I may have an update of the campaign folder. [Update: Nah. That incident happened before the war started and was somewhat murky as to the culprits. We already have a campaign starting event which deals with the bombing of Helsinki.]
There is nothing murky there. :evil: It was a Soviet operation to have an excuse for an invasion. Wasn't the only one, either.

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Mascarenhas
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Re: BrucErik CSD Studio

Post by Mascarenhas »

Normandy, yet

Thanks, Bru, for the clarification. Yes, a Minor Victory was enough to get me going down the road to Caen. And I completed the scenario´s turns till the end, with the result already reported.
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Re: BrucErik CSD Studio

Post by bru888 »

ColonelY wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:22 am :!: Want some challenge? :wink:

Actually, there is a great campaign that has yet to be created: a Free France campaign, which could contain at least eleven or twelve main historical scenarios... :idea:

This includes: the (failed) operation in front of Dakar, the Gabon campaign, the Eritrea campaign, the Syrian campaign, some hard desert fightings (the heroic actions at Bir Hakeim in Libya, then El Alamein in Egypt), the Tunisian campaign, the Italian campaign, a landing in Provence, the siege of La Rochelle (where the Allies were commanded by a Free France general), the Battle of Alsace, the Battle of the Authion... :D

So naval operations, landings, battles in the desert, many "factions" involved, etc. In short: many ingredients for an epic saga! :wink:
Hmmm...
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Re: BrucErik CSD Studio

Post by bru888 »

CoolDTA wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:47 am
bru888 wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:40 am French and Spanish are one thing, but I would venture to guess that 99 out of 100 of us will not know the difference when it comes to Finnish.
That is probably correct. :lol:
Again, no offense to anyone with Finnish affinities. I did use this source: Old maps of Finland and I bet a careful perusal of that, compared to today's (and possibly inaccurate) Google map information, would yield inconsistencies of spellings over time.
CoolDTA wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:47 am
bru888 wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:40 am
CoolDTA wrote: Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:10 pm Quick recap: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila.
Interesting. I might be able to work that in as a campaign event, between a couple of episodes. Erik, please check back here; I may have an update of the campaign folder. [Update: Nah. That incident happened before the war started and was somewhat murky as to the culprits. We already have a campaign starting event which deals with the bombing of Helsinki.]
There is nothing murky there. :evil: It was a Soviet operation to have an excuse for an invasion. Wasn't the only one, either.
Yes, the Wikipedia article is rather definite on that score. I continue to learn about WW2; the article says it was similar to Germany's culpability for the Gleiwitz Incident which I was dimly aware of but I had never heard of the Shelling of Mainila. Still, it having occurred before the war started, it's out of the campaign's scope although I guess we could have mentioned it along the way. As a matter of fact, I'm thinking about mentioning it at the beginning of the next campaign, Winter War 1940, as some sort of flashback, reminiscence, or rallying cry.

I'm also thinking of using those political cartoons images for scenarios popups. I've done that before with good results, I think.
- Bru
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Re: BrucErik CSD Studio

Post by bru888 »

Mascarenhas wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:32 pm Thanks, Bru, for the clarification. Yes, a Minor Victory was enough to get me going down the road to Caen. And I completed the scenario´s turns till the end, with the result already reported.
My pleasure, and thank you for reporting it. Now, finish up Normandy UK & Canada and get started on Winter War 1939, please. :)
- Bru
ColonelY
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Re: BrucErik CSD Studio

Post by ColonelY »

bru888 wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:22 pm Hmmm...
Well, if I may say so, it's darkly clear! :lol:

So, who does feel ready to take up this challenge? :D
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Re: BrucErik CSD Studio

Post by bru888 »

ColonelY wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:02 pm
bru888 wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:22 pm Hmmm...
Well, if I may say so, it's darkly clear! :lol:

So, who does feel ready to take up this challenge? :D
Well, "Hmmm..." means it's in the thinking pot, if that is a correct phrase. Right now, we have Winter War 1940 on the drawing boards and a vague jungle(?) campaign lurking behind that. The great one (Erik) may take a shine to the idea and initiate it for the studio or, if not, maybe I will think about it myself.
- Bru
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Re: BrucErik CSD Studio

Post by ColonelY »

Great, thanks a lot! 8)

I do hope to see this project come to fruition. :D

I might even be able to be somewhat helpful with a few tricks :wink:, such as little-known facts, some of the units involved, etc.
Last edited by ColonelY on Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BrucErik CSD Studio

Post by ColonelY »

Just an example: it could allow to pay tribute to "Les Rochambelles", the most famous nurses of the Second World War. :idea:

Their name pays homage to the Count de Rochambeau, a French officer made famous during the American War of Independence. Its founder was the American Florence Conrad, a former nurse who had participated in the Great War. But the followings is of more interest for us right now:

In 1943, in New York, Florence Conrad recruited young French volunteers who wanted to actively participate in the liberation of Europe. These volunteers went to Morocco to join the 2nd Division Blindée. Arriving in France in August 1944, they faced the fury of the fighting.

At the controls of their ambulances Dodge WC54, these nurses intervene in first lines. Les Rochambelles evacuated the wounded, took care of them and gave them first aid. From Paris to Strasbourg, as far as Hitler's Eagle's Nest, these courageous nurses accompanied the famous French Leclerc's Division. :D

:arrow: So, they could for example be added via an event when the time comes, appearing with a "Medical Jeep" core-unit named "Les Rochambelles", couldn't they ? :wink:
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Re: BrucErik CSD Studio

Post by CoolDTA »

bru888 wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:36 pm Again, no offense to anyone with Finnish affinities. I did use this source: Old maps of Finland and I bet a careful perusal of that, compared to today's (and possibly inaccurate) Google map information, would yield inconsistencies of spellings over time.
Okay..., those are nice and I especially liked the 'Nova et accurata delineatio etc.' map. :D But they are a bit hard to read, are they not? Like I said earlier, I could probably help you a bit (for WW1940 probably). I had this kind of maps in mind (these examples are from Suomussalmi area):

map001.jpg
map001.jpg (83.58 KiB) Viewed 2929 times
And a more detailed one:

map002.jpg
map002.jpg (287.16 KiB) Viewed 2929 times
I think the upper one is more suitable, easier to read and sufficient enough for your purposes to look for locations to use etc.
bru888 wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:40 amStill, it having occurred before the war started, it's out of the campaign's scope although I guess we could have mentioned it along the way. As a matter of fact, I'm thinking about mentioning it at the beginning of the next campaign, Winter War 1940, as some sort of flashback, reminiscence, or rallying cry.

I'm also thinking of using those political cartoons images for scenarios popups. I've done that before with good results, I think.
I think Shelling of Mainila is sthg to show as the first campaign event (like those German soldiers on Polish border). For WW1940 maybe something that shows Finland wasn't as easy as the Soviets thought. Cartoon images would be a nice touch.
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Re: BrucErik CSD Studio

Post by ColonelY »

CoolDTA wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:46 pm I think Shelling of Mainila is sthg to show as the first campaign event (like those German soldiers on Polish border). For WW1940 maybe something that shows Finland wasn't as easy as the Soviets thought. Cartoon images would be a nice touch.
Yope, I agree with that. 8)
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Re: BrucErik CSD Studio

Post by bru888 »

Cool, those maps could help going forward (1940 . . . and 1941? I just saw another indication that Continuation War may be in the studio works, too). Any more maps that you care to post here for that time period would be appreciated.

Cool and Colonel, consider it done: You will see a reference starting the 1940 campaign to the Shelling of Mainila and one of those political cartoons as the initial popup in the campaign. Something along the lines of "It is now evident that the shelling of Mainila back in November was a deliberate act by the Soviets to provide a casus belli for this war. While other countries sympathize with our plight, as evidenced by this cartoon, we receive little or no aid from them with the exception of Sweden. And that is not nearly enough. We still face the enemy alone." Pre-measured: 348 characters, which should just fit the 350 character rule of thumb for popup messages! :)
- Bru
ColonelY
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Re: BrucErik CSD Studio

Post by ColonelY »

Great! 8)

*******

Finland campaigns – back to the paratroopers! :wink:

1. Some history:

On October 1918, an American airborne assault (involving about 12’000 parachutists) against the German stronghold at Metz, in France, was about to be planned… but the armistice stopped it!
Anyway, shortly after the Great War, the officer in charge of the preparation of this plan, now a general, persisted in this line of thinking and six soldiers realized a successful demonstration in front of observers… Although the US observers dismissed the concept, not all of the observers arrived at the same conclusion.

And it’s the USSR that was the first nation to take a serious interest in parachuting to introduce ground forces into battle! :o

Firstly, static line parachuting was introduced in USSR as a national sport and the population was encouraged to join the Russian Airborne Corps. The German observers eagerly grasped the idea as well and planners worked quickly to develop an effective military parachute organization.

For the first time, in August 1930 at Veronezh (Russia), Soviet paratroopers participated in military maneuvers :!:, and their actions were so effective that a repeat performance was given in Moscow one month later. The Red Army created a test unit in 1931. By 1935, the Red Army was able to employ two battalions of parachute infantry in field exercises. So, by 1935, the Russians were off to a head start on Airborne warfare and made the world's first spectacular use of parachutists!

Beginning in the mid-1930s, several other European nations followed suit. The prewar Soviet example 8) inspired enthusiasm among the Germans, French, and British. (The British organized parachute forces in 1936 and used them continually in their maneuvers - so, as in Normandy :wink:. The French organized a parachute battalion in 1938 but inactivated it in 1939. The Germans launched a particularly aggressive program… By 1940 Hitler had 4,500 parachutists at his disposal, organized into six battalions. Another 12,000 men formed an air infantry division designed as an air-landed follow-up to a parachute assault. A force of 700 Ju-52 transport planes was available to carry these troops into combat and each Ju-52 could hold up to 15 men.)

Anyway, back to the Soviets:
Despite its early entrance upon the Airborne stage, the USSR made little use of Airborne troops in World War II. But still, the Soviet Union made the first combat use of parachute forces. For example, on 2 December 1939, as part of its initial abortive invasion of Finland, the Red Army dropped several dozen paratroopers near Petsamo behind the opposing lines.

Alas for them, they apparently came down on top of a Finnish unit :shock:, which shot many of them before they reached the ground. Subsequent Soviet attempts during the Finnish campaign to employ airborne forces, all rather small in scale, met equally disastrous fates. This bad luck has the consequence that their later activities were principally concerned with the dropping of supplies and individuals for guerrilla activities… :?

2. The actual scenarios:D

Therefore, having seen this historical background, soviet paratroopers must indeed be added (as already suggested). You have large-scale scenarios as well as small-scale ones, which is perfect because it offers many options to this regard.

To be as historically accurate as possible, I suggest adding some Soviet paratroopers (but not much), around the end of 1939 or the beginning of 1940… in a mission to “cut the Finnish supply lines”...

Then there can be an objective (primary or secondary?) to destroy all these paratroopers units… and, as soon as this is achieved, an event with something as “Despite the daring use of Soviet paratroopers, our brave soldiers managed to slaughter or capture them all! Probably the enemy will have learned his lesson and will never try it again...

Perhaps even with as well an opportunity to intercept them in the air to weaken them already a little before their dropping? :wink:

So, it would be historically fine, it would reflect the initial real interest of the USSR for paratroopers… and it would make it clear why one wouldn’t see any more of them on the battlefield directly for the rest of the Finnish campaigns! :idea:
Last edited by ColonelY on Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
bru888
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Re: BrucErik CSD Studio

Post by bru888 »

Colonel, based on this research (the source, though?) and your willingness to share it in detail like this, you can count on seeing Russian paratroopers here and there in Winter War 1940. Maybe special mentions and missions.
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Re: BrucErik CSD Studio

Post by ColonelY »

:D Cool, thanks, I'm looking forward to see this!

Sources? Well, one could already consider these:
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=121071
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... borne1.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Airborne_Forces (with tons of references)
https://www.airforcemag.com/article/0912finland/ (have a look at the first picture's legend!)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyazma_airborne_operation (real massive airborne operation later vs Germans)
https://warisboring.com/soviet-paratroo ... peratures/ (idem, versus Germans... this couldn't have been achieved without few tries previously made)

But there are certainly others similar... :wink:
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Re: BrucErik CSD Studio

Post by bru888 »

Good. I thought as much. Thanks.
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Re: BrucErik CSD Studio

Post by CoolDTA »

I certainly wouldn't introduce Soviet paratroopers in the Winter War based on any of those sources. It would be pure fantasy. But maybe it is best if you read the first of those (https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=121071) and then do what you think is best. Note that the sources are okay in sense of telling about Soviet paratroops in general.

Notwithstanding: like I said earlier, there were two Soviet Airborne Brigades used as regular rifle infantry in Ladoga Karelia. Here one small combat drop (200 men) was actually planned but cancelled because of inclement weather. So it would not be too ahistorical to use a Soviet AB unit (or two) in one of the scenarios in WW 1940. Just to add some flavour and a 'could have happened'.
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Re: BrucErik CSD Studio

Post by CoolDTA »

bru888 wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:52 pm Cool, those maps could help going forward (1940 . . . and 1941? I just saw another indication that Continuation War may be in the studio works, too). Any more maps that you care to post here for that time period would be appreciated.

Cool and Colonel, consider it done: You will see a reference starting the 1940 campaign to the Shelling of Mainila and one of those political cartoons as the initial popup in the campaign. Something along the lines of "It is now evident that the shelling of Mainila back in November was a deliberate act by the Soviets to provide a casus belli for this war. While other countries sympathize with our plight, as evidenced by this cartoon, we receive little or no aid from them with the exception of Sweden. And that is not nearly enough. We still face the enemy alone." Pre-measured: 348 characters, which should just fit the 350 character rule of thumb for popup messages! :)
That will be a great popup to start the campaign and I like you mentioning Sweden there. :)

Sure, there are maps for Continuation War also in another book from the same authors. If you could just tell for what scenario (name, date, location - the info you have) you needed a map, it'd be immensely helpful.
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Re: BrucErik CSD Studio

Post by Erik2 »

We are probably getting a bit ahead of ourselves, but these are the scenarios planned and done pre-Bru treatment.

Winter War 1940
1940.jpg
1940.jpg (13.8 KiB) Viewed 2858 times

Continuation War 1941 features Wehrmacht and Waffen SS cores in addition to the Finns. I hope this will work when importing 1939/1940 Finnish cores....
1941.jpg
1941.jpg (11.03 KiB) Viewed 2858 times
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Re: BrucErik CSD Studio

Post by ColonelY »

CoolDTA wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:58 pm I certainly wouldn't introduce Soviet paratroopers in the Winter War based on any of those sources. It would be pure fantasy.
Pure fantasy? :shock: Not sure at all about that; and it's sometimes difficult to find really precise sources... the main problem here, somehow, is that they were not large-scale operations involving thousands of men. The smaller the operation, the more difficult it can be to find records about it.

Paratroopers have been involved. :) How exactly, this is another point.

Maybe some book will talk about them? But anyway, one knows that it's not just because it's written somewhere that it's true, as well as the fact that the history is often written by the winners, etc. What is a real proof anyway or, better, what would be considered as such? :wink:
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