Conforming Q's

[madcam2us]

A MF BG charges two enemy BGs - One LH, One HF..



and makes contact on both...



Impact is resolved and no one drops, nor inflicts casualties..

How does the MF conform? Does it slide to only be in frontal contact with the LH since that is the shortest move



Or because it was in frontal contact with the HF is it forced to align thusly:



I think the latter due to the following:

Pg 70..

At the start of the manoeuver phase, the active player's BGs already in close combat with the enemy must...pivot and/or slide by the minimum necessary to conform to the enmy bases_IN Contact_:
---Conforming usually means lining up each base in full front edge to front edge contact with an enemy base, or conforming to an overlap position.

I take this to mean since the MF fought the HF in the impact phase it must align to full frontal contact even if moving to fully align to the LH is a shorter move. (see my emphasis above)

My opponent reads this to mean since the HF is still in an overlap position he has satisfied the requirement.

Thoughts?

Madcam.

[deadtorius]

I agree with the latter. You contacted both units in the impact phase so you must remain in front base contact when you shift so I think the latter picture is correct. If the Heavy foot were only an overlap they would not get dice in the impact phase.
Simple rule of thumb, if they got dice in impact they have to remain in front base contact in the melee phase.

[madcam2us]

Reading the other 4 page conforming query shows the authors are still not decided in this...

In that example it was the 2BGs charging the 1BG

In my example its the 1 BG chargeing the 2.

Nowhere did I see anyone even address the possiblity that this could happen in that scenario...

I'm in firm believe that the Charging BGs, if they throw Impact dice vs BGs, they have to throw MELEE dice at the same BG.

As such, the Single BG MUST conform to fight both and split their dice...

I think this also might give the answer to that separate question whereby the 2 BGs charge the 1...

Madcam

[madcam2us]

I agree with the latter. You contacted both units in the impact phase so you must remain in front base contact when you shift so I think the latter picture is correct. If the Heavy foot were only an overlap they would not get dice in the impact phase.
Simple rule of thumb, if they got dice in impact they have to remain in front base contact in the melee phase.

The last picture right??

Madcam

[gozerius]

There is nothing in the rules to convince me that the requirement to slide the minimum distance to line up in full front to front contact or to an overlap position means anything but the shortest distance to line up each friendly base with the enemy base which is most directly to its front. Keep in mind that the bases of the battlegroup are fighting enemy bases and not battlegroups. The bases are organized into battlegroups for command and cohesion purposes. A battlegroup hitting a line made of several battlegroups should not behave differently than if it hit the same frontage made of just one battlegroup. Otherwise we are going to see all sorts of silly games played by people trying to force certain types of unrealistic conforming outcomes. Remember that all the bases contacted in the original charge will still be in close combat during the melee phase, even if some are only fighting as an overlap. This should apply equally to a line of adjacent battlegroups needing to conform. The key is that each base in contact conforms by (first) pivoting into full front edge contact, then sliding the minimum to line up in either full front base to base contact or into an overlap position as shown on page 72. The rules for determining the resolution of close combat when unable to conform (Page 86) strengthen this interpretation. "If two bases would conform to the same enemy base, then the one which has the shortest distance to conform fights." Bases conform - not battlegroups.
Yes, I I've read the argument that this allows the battlegroup left in overlap the option to move away from the melee in it's turn, and that it will not be subject to negative outcomes in the melee phase, but that is a valid outcome based on the positions of the respective battlegroups. The charging BG hits the LH squarely and clips the HF, but then finds itself fully engaged with the LH while the HF are able to assist the LH, but are not fully engaged and can choose to move away in their move. Makes more sense than the alternative.

I leave it to the authors to disabuse me of this understanding of their very well crafted rules.

[Andy1972]

looking at this, since most of the base is against the LH.. It would be all on the light horse.. With this game what feels right is usually what is.. Unlike a game i know from earlier...

[philqw78]

The MF should have fought only the LH at impact. Then lined up with the LH. It clearly has more contact with them during impact. Unless they are not exactly parallel and the MF hit the HF first

[Fulgrim]

The MF should have fought only the LH at impact. Then lined up with the LH. It clearly has more contact with them during impact. Unless they are not exactly parallel and the MF hit the HF first

/agree to this and to gozerius post

[hammy]

The MF should have fought only the LH at impact. Then lined up with the LH. It clearly has more contact with them during impact. Unless they are not exactly parallel and the MF hit the HF first

Actually the LH/HF player gets to choose which of their bases fight at impact. The side with most bases in contact chooses which bases fight P91.

As for conforming I cannot see anything requiring the MF to shift the much greater distance required to line up with the HF. In this case as the MF are in contact with three enemy bases then they slide the minumum to conform with bases in contact which means they slide to the light horse.

If the MF had charged at an angle to the left and just hit the HF with their front left corner then stepped forwards into the light horse with the front left corner of the right hand file of MF then the MF would conform with one base on the HF and one on the light horse as these would be the only bases in contact.

I don't see why people have a problem here. It is nothing like the other question where two BGs chaged one.

[babyshark]

The MF shift to frontal contact with the LH only, leaving the HF fighting in overlap. The rule states that the conformers slide to conform to enemy bases in contact. Not BGs, an important distinction. The MF have two bases trying to conform to three bases; regardless of which direction the slide goes there will be one enemy base left uncovered. So the minimum slide to line up with enemy bases in contact is the one that covers the LH only, not the LH and the HF.

Good photos, Madcam; they help clarify the situation.

Marc

[madcam2us]

While I don't agree with the interp, that might stem from us playing the active player got to choose the combats and not the one with the most bases...

With the latter part of the equation, I'm ok with the move if we've reach consensus. the way it was played was the active player chose the combats and then shifted out of harms way.... Seemed to unfair to me at the time.

Madcam.

[Polkovnik]

The MF aren't exactly shifting out of harms way. The HF act as an overlap in melee. If the MF remain steady the LH break off and then next turn the HF can slide across and fight the MF, feeding in more bases to create an overlap.

[madcam2us]

the bases in the picture are not represented of the exact situation in game....

In game the charging BG was Superior LT spr/swd armed LH. the other BGs were LH bow. He hit both BGs in order to gain two dice on each at a +. then he shifted to only have to face one BG where he could concentrate his 4 dice vs one BG at a +

If any of the BGs would have went disordered, then that would have been the one he shifted to (if the move was shortest). All the benefits without any of the risks...

Now however, since its the player with the most bases in combat getting to decide which fight, this tactic is effectively neutered...

Madcam.

[philqw78]

I'm at work so can't be certain but isn't the page 91 bit for if a base has more than 1 base in frontal contact with it after bases have shifted to line up?

[madcam2us]

No, pg 91 is covering the impact phase and not melee phase.

Madcam

[gozerius]

The bases in contact conform to the enemy by the minimum necessary, but do not necessarily have to line up against the base contacted in the Impact phase. As the example shown on page 72 shows, each base pivots into full contact with the enemy, then shift to line up against the base most directly to its front. In the example the rightmost cav base pivots and then lines up with the base to the right of the one it initially contacted, because after pivotting it has more of its front edge in contact with the new base. The same is true for the center cav base on page 64, which will line up against the leftmost enemy cav base. As demonstrated in the sequence of impact and melee combats depicted on pages 91 and 93, the Cav hitting the lefthand battle group shift by the minimum necessary, which puts the leftmost base in overlap, rather than right to line up against the bases contacted in the Impact phase. On page 86 the rightmost is blocked from sliding right (the minimum necessary to line up), so remains in place, rather than sliding left. In the melee phase the leftmost bases fight the bases they would have lined up on had they been able to and the center bases fight as an overlap.
The thing to recognize from the examples is that each base pivots at the point of contact to line up with the enemy, then slides to fully cover the position it most closely occupies, be that lining up on the base initially contacted, or an adjacent base, or an overlap position.

[hazelbark]

I'm in firm believe that the Charging BGs, if they throw Impact dice vs BGs, they have to throw MELEE dice at the same BG.

Interesting theory but not in the rules.

[hazelbark]

While I don't agree with the interp, that might stem from us playing the active player got to choose the combats and not the one with the most bases...

With the latter part of the equation, I'm ok with the move if we've reach consensus. the way it was played was the active player chose the combats and then shifted out of harms way.... Seemed to unfair to me at the time.

It is not an interp. It is clear.

You do play funny in ohio. Can't wait for you to see if you like the game when you play by the rules.

[madcam2us]

While I don't agree with the interp, that might stem from us playing the active player got to choose the combats and not the one with the most bases...

With the latter part of the equation, I'm ok with the move if we've reach consensus. the way it was played was the active player chose the combats and then shifted out of harms way.... Seemed to unfair to me at the time.

It is not an interp. It is clear.

You do play funny in ohio. Can't wait for you to see if you like the game when you play by the rules.

I just like to make sure I don't have any misunderstandings with players before I play the game...

Some WiseSMAC player gave me this wisdom.... As for your game, I'm tired of you dodging me. I just might hire myself out to a foreign country in order to get you in the TEST matches...

Lets see, I'm 25% irish... That counts for something right?

Madcam